Civil Air Patrol Providing "Security" At an Event?

[RADIOMAN015]

I know of some squadrons and two wings that has allegedly performed "security" for events, as listed in their news releases, even some printed in CAP Volunteer Now.

I'm wondering does National HQ have a specific policy regarding what CAP members can do at these type of events especially when the "security" duties come up

Is there (or has anyone doing a lot of these developed) a standard support engagement letter/email that needs to be sent to the event organizer that CAP is assisting that lists what we can and can't do   Is there some documents e.g. hold harmless agreement that CAP should also get

Now personally I like the idea of calling it a Safety or Courtesy Patrol, but even when one gets into duties like parking vehicles or so called crowd control, I wonder what CAP individual adult members and organizationally what potential liability there would be

I have no problem with CAP members walking around with a radio and calling in problems observed as part of a safety patrol or even helping out at the lost/found/information booth for the activity, or even initially coming to someones aid and calling in the paramedics.       

I think when one starts calling for volunteers for "security" details supporting external events to CAP, it has the potential of becoming a "wanna bee" cop activity

RM
     

 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Great Caesar's Ghost, your favourite word "wanna bee" again...

I actually found your post reasonably thoughtful until I got to that word.

We cannot do "security" as AF Security Police and/or civilian LE agencies can, as I am sure you know.  "Security" can encompass many things, such as safety and well-being.

Early in my CAP career, I was part of a "security" detail at an airshow on a civilian airfield.

I spotted some numb-nut lighting up a smoke near a refuelling point.

I asked him, "Sir, would you mind lighting up somewhere else; I really do not want to see this airfield and everyone on it go up in an explosion."

He responded with some invective that would not get past this board's filters.

I thought, "OK, then," and approached a nearby Sheriff's Deputy and told him the situation.  He just shook his head as if to say "the stupidity of mortal man," and then proceeded to show said numb-nut the error of his ways, including an offer of a stay in the county lockup.  I thanked the Deputy and that was the end of it.

At another airshow on an AF base, someone was lighting up underneath the wing of a C-5 Galaxy.  My squadron CC and I went over to the guy and said "please don't do that...this airplane is fully fuelled."  The guy was genuinely apologetic, saying "I'm sorry, I just didn't think," put his butt out and left the area.  End of story, everyone's reasonably happy.

I think most CAP personnel know that when an issue becomes a true security (i.e., potential criminal behaviour) issue, we hand off to the people with the badge, sidearm and cuffs.  If it's a health and safety issue, unless the CAP member is a licenced first responder/medical professional, we hand off to the nearest EMT/doctor/nurse/police officer and let them handle it rather than do something we are not equipped to do.

[BrannG]

I'm new here and even I see RM using "wanna-be" this and "wanna-be" that.. wth?! Can't someone just be supportive?

As for "security" duties, I was in a "security detail" with CAP once in Austin, Texas during an over night event, we had 5 patrols in the area over night keeping people out and road blocks into the area, however we didn't have anything except radios and could not detail or use force, simply politely inform the person they are in a restricted area, please turn around and use the radio to communicate with base ops who would inform local authorities as needed.

I am sure when CAP is signed up for "security detail" the agency who is asking us for assistance is informed of what we can and can not do. Once again, this is all part of the "Properly Informing Citizens" I was speaking of in another RM posting..

Do you have that little faith in the senior members who organize these events?! Also, before asking such a redundant question, how about getting a copy of the Scope of Work (Operations Briefing) for the event - I am 100% sure it states "Under no circumstances may any member of the Civil Air Patrol bare firearms, use force or detail" or something like that.

[NIN]

RM forgot to go down to Walgreens and pick up his meds this week.

[wuzafuzz]

I think when one starts calling for volunteers for "security" details supporting external events to CAP, it has the potential of becoming a "wanna bee" cop activity

Why would cops want bees?


Or has there been violence at spelling bees?

[RADIOMAN015]

I'm new here and even I see RM using "wanna-be" this and "wanna-be" that.. wth?! Can't someone just be supportive?


Do you have that little faith in the senior members who organize these events?! Also, before asking such a redundant question, how about getting a copy of the Scope of Work (Operations Briefing) for the event - I am 100% sure it states "Under no circumstances may any member of the Civil Air Patrol bare firearms, use force or detail" or something like that.

Gee you must be walking around with your eyes closed in CAP regarding the "wanna bee" factor.   Add in a security detail and you've got a double wanna bee factor there

I think CAP's emergency service missions are very clear.  When you get into "security" type support (as in community service), it's very reasonable to expect a National policy defining what we can do.  In fact I don't think you should even be able to call it  "security" anything, especially if it is out of the typical ES mission charter (which specifically allows crash site security).   

So if a CAP member gets injured on a "security detail" who's paying the bills   (especially if its' some low budget non profit type association ).

IMHO this 'security" type activity can be a land mine ready to explode, if we don't pick very carefully who we provide support to and are very clear (in a formal document signed by CAP and the other supported organization)  that we are not security  (BTW I'd be more comfortable with helping military, federal, state, & local government agencies as opposed to a loosely defined non profit association (with basically no assets),  -- that's why there needs to be good guidance, especially IF a CAP member gets injured).

BTW did you ever notice that for the most part CAP tightens regulations/policies AFTER there's an issue/problem that explodes rather than being proactive :angel:

I personally have no interest in participating in on site security activities unless it is an AF authorized mission.  Even than, I'd prefer to be sitting in a nice warm or air conditioned mission base/hq just running the radio and taking life easy

RM   

   



     

         

           

[ZigZag911]

Observe and report.

Inform the public, especially of imminent hazards, e.g., "Pleae stay behind the rope, aircraft are taxiing beyond it".

That's about it.

[abdsp51]

I'm new here and even I see RM using "wanna-be" this and "wanna-be" that.. wth?! Can't someone just be supportive?


Do you have that little faith in the senior members who organize these events?! Also, before asking such a redundant question, how about getting a copy of the Scope of Work (Operations Briefing) for the event - I am 100% sure it states "Under no circumstances may any member of the Civil Air Patrol bare firearms, use force or detail" or something like that.

Gee you must be walking around with your eyes closed in CAP regarding the "wanna bee" factor.   Add in a security detail and you've got a double wanna bee factor there

I think CAP's emergency service missions are very clear.  When you get into "security" type support (as in community service), it's very reasonable to expect a National policy defining what we can do.  In fact I don't think you should even be able to call it  "security" anything, especially if it is out of the typical ES mission charter (which specifically allows crash site security).   

So if a CAP member gets injured on a "security detail" who's paying the bills   (especially if its' some low budget non profit type association ).

IMHO this 'security" type activity can be a land mine ready to explode, if we don't pick very carefully who we provide support to and are very clear (in a formal document signed by CAP and the other supported organization)  that we are not security  (BTW I'd be more comfortable with helping military, federal, state, & local government agencies as opposed to a loosely defined non profit association (with basically no assets),  -- that's why there needs to be good guidance, especially IF a CAP member gets injured).

BTW did you ever notice that for the most part CAP tightens regulations/policies AFTER there's an issue/problem that explodes rather than being proactive :angel:

I personally have no interest in participating in on site security activities unless it is an AF authorized mission.  Even than, I'd prefer to be sitting in a nice warm or air conditioned mission base/hq just running the radio and taking life easy

RM           

So basically anything you can do to do the bare minimum, wear a golf shirt, and drum up a PR spot. 

[FlyTiger77]

I personally have no interest in participating in on site security activities unless it is an AF authorized mission.       

Then don't participate.

[EMT-83]

To answer the original question, CAP members may not provide security services. You know, those pesky regulations that specifically prohibit such activity.

[krnlpanick]

To answer the original question, CAP members may not provide security services. You know, those pesky regulations that specifically prohibit such activity.

So what is crowd-control then?

[BrannG]

Gee you must be walking around with your eyes closed in CAP regarding the "wanna bee" factor.   Add in a security detail and you've got a double wanna bee factor there

I think CAP's emergency service missions are very clear.  When you get into "security" type support (as in community service), it's very reasonable to expect a National policy defining what we can do.  In fact I don't think you should even be able to call it  "security" anything, especially if it is out of the typical ES mission charter (which specifically allows crash site security).   

So if a CAP member gets injured on a "security detail" who's paying the bills   (especially if its' some low budget non profit type association ).

IMHO this 'security" type activity can be a land mine ready to explode, if we don't pick very carefully who we provide support to and are very clear (in a formal document signed by CAP and the other supported organization)  that we are not security  (BTW I'd be more comfortable with helping military, federal, state, & local government agencies as opposed to a loosely defined non profit association (with basically no assets),  -- that's why there needs to be good guidance, especially IF a CAP member gets injured).

BTW did you ever notice that for the most part CAP tightens regulations/policies AFTER there's an issue/problem that explodes rather than being proactive :angel:

I personally have no interest in participating in on site security activities unless it is an AF authorized mission.  Even than, I'd prefer to be sitting in a nice warm or air conditioned mission base/hq just running the radio and taking life easy

RM   

         

Well.. if you think that poorly of the Civil Air Patrol, my only question is this - why are you a member? You seem to be a very poor example of what being a member of CAP means.

If you don't agree with a mission, don't go and don't post crap bring down the organization and the membership. That simple. If you were man enough to post your unit on here, I am pretty sure your CO would in fact be hearing a lot about your posts on here. But not man enough to man up, but man enough to talk against CAP, than honestly, I know why your no longer in the Armed Services. Honor seems be a concept you don't understand. As someone who was in fact commissioned in active duty, I would be appalled to have you in any unit I was in.

On a less bashing note, there is a reg on who covers the bill, AND there is in fact a law.. For the reg - look at CAPR 900-5 (look under Section E "SENIOR MEMBER AND CADET ACCIDENT, LIFE AND MEDICAL BENEFITS—AUTOMATIC COVERAGE ", which relates to CAPF 80. The law you want to look up is 5 USC § 8141 - CIVIL AIR PATROL VOLUNTEERS. I guess you don't do your homework before asking questions.

Also, did you know (my guess is no) that if you are disabled or die on any mission ordered by the United States Air Force, you are covered by the Federal Employees Compensation Act (FECA), not sure what means? Look it up -> http://www.dol.gov/compliance/laws/comp-feca.htm or use the power of Google. As of today that means that if you are disabled or die, you or your spouse or next of kin gets about 350k..

Hows that ego now?

[GroundHawg]

My squadron does "security" aka parking at our local county fair every year. We get to set up a free recruiting booth, and the county gives the squadron enough money to keep the lights on for the rest of the year. The cadets get to be outside working for an entire week, get into the fair for free one night, get free food (its free for a reason), the squadron gets TONS of recruits during the fair, and the county has a competent experienced parking detail that works for a song. Im not seeing how this is not a win win win win for everyone. We have done this for almost 20 years now and this is the first time Ive ever seen or heard anyone complain or think this would be a bad idea.
Just think of how much better off people would be if they spent half as much time being positive than worrying about the negatives...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Gee you must be walking around with your eyes closed in CAP regarding the "wanna bee" factor.   Add in a security detail and you've got a double wanna bee factor there

There's a difference in walking around with your eyes closed and seeing things that aren't there.  I believe the term is hallucinating.

I personally have no interest in participating in on site security activities unless it is an AF authorized mission.  Even than, I'd prefer to be sitting in a nice warm or air conditioned mission base/hq just running the radio and taking life easy

Unless, of course, you have an Incident Commander on scene who decides to exercise his/her option to allocate personnel as s/he sees fit for the successful resolution of the mission.  I was expecting to fly Scanner on one practice mission, but the IC decided he needed me at the Comms desk.  I was a First Lieutenant, he was a Lieutenant Colonel.  I sure wasn't going to say "no," not unless I wanted to be kicked off his mission and not be called in future for others.

I think most of us who are aircrew have experienced less-than-comfortable missions...like ELT hunting at night in the middle of winter.  BTDT.

And, of course, those on the GT side have slogged through mud, snow, nasty terrain, etc. to look for an aircraft crash, missing person, etc.

Those on the Mission Support side have also made do with comm trailers, vans, etc. which aren't warm and cosy or air conditioned.

[capmaj]

And RADIOMAN..... Don't forget. When the Great New England Air Show comes to your home squadrons base in August...... DON"T GO AS A CAP MEMBER! You will probably be asked to provide 'security' in the form of crowd control...or a/c watch..... or FOD watch, etc.

DON'T work the show!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Unless, of course, you have an Incident Commander on scene who decides to exercise his/her option to allocate personnel as s/he sees fit for the successful resolution of the mission.  I was expecting to fly Scanner on one practice mission, but the IC decided he needed me at the Comms desk.  I was a First Lieutenant, he was a Lieutenant Colonel.  I sure wasn't going to say "no," not unless I wanted to be kicked off his mission and not be called in future for others.

Had the IC been a 2d Lt or a CAP NCO the result would be the same. When we activate ICS, position is what matters. If the National Commander checked in to my ICP as a resource, I would expect him to perform his assigned duties.

[RADIOMAN015]

And RADIOMAN..... Don't forget. When the Great New England Air Show comes to your home squadrons base in August...... DON"T GO AS A CAP MEMBER! You will probably be asked to provide 'security' in the form of crowd control...or a/c watch..... or FOD watch, etc.

DON'T work the show!

The squadrons I am familiar with have not been asked to provide any type of security/parking, crowd control, FOD walk services for any of the shows in the wing for many years.  That is handled strictly by AFR & ANG personnel at the respective shows, backed up by a large state police contingent that makes arrest if necessary or just throws the problem people off the base.   The last show in that wing were parking and roving patrol support was provided was four or five years ago and one of the unit's supervising senior member involved actually pulled the cadets off the detail due to safety concerns (weather was too hot, no relief from base personnel, etc).   BTW NH wing last year even had a problem getting its' own personnel to provide staffing for parking support at the Portsmouth-Boston Air Show, and had to ask other nearby wings for assistance.  it is not an easy volunteer mission, especially if the weather is very hot/sunny.

Again I'd like to point out that I have no issue with CAP providing legal authorized support to any organization we choose to help.   The issue is should National provide a standard written agreement format that must be adhered to, and covers contingencies (e.g. we can pull our people off if safety is a concern) , including provisions if our members are injured, disabled, or a liability issue arises .   I do strongly believe that any assistance provided to other organizations need to be in writing to protect us and eliminate any misunderstandings of what we can and can't do.     Also many states regulate "security" (guard services), and even non profits providing these type of services need to be licensed and supervised (in my state it is the State Police), so using the term "security" could be problematic.   

Air shows in my opinion are the VERY BEST venues for CAP to display what we do best and try to recruit both cadets & senior members and inform the public what we do for them.    So a recruiting booth along with aircraft displays, is an outstanding use of resources to an "interested" public.      In the past that show has had  400,000+ people attend.   This year there's no major military team (TBirds, BAngels), so I would guess that attendance might be down to 300,000.   CAP is not providing any support to the base for this show.     Air shows are like birthday presents to PAOs  :clap:      BTW I'm hoping by then the new uniform changes that allow us to wear grey or tan shorts with our blue golf shirts will be implemented   :angel:
RM     
 

   

   

[Flying Pig]

When I was a cadet in the early 90s I was working the March AFB Airshow.  I was at our booth that we had set up when an F-14 pilot walked over to our booth and asked if the squadron could spare two cadets to watch his jet while he stood at his booth and talked to people.  Seems he caught people shoving trash in vents, and found a guy with a screw driver actually trying to access a panel (If youve ever spent any time in Moreno Valley, CA youd understand!) 

I ended up doing it, and so did two other cadets.  We just stood around the jet and made sure people werent being stupid.  At the end of the day, we got patches, t-shirts and got to sit in the jet.  After hours, after the airshow was over.  Then when we were done, the B-1 bomber crew who was parked started getting into some friendly inter-service "banter" with the Navy pilots.  As a result of that, we were invited into the cockpit of the B1 so the Air Force guys could show us "what a real aircraft looked like"  They gave us patches, and a t-shirt with the Sq name with a picture of a mushroom cloud that said "No sense running you will only die tired" (My mom never let me wear it to school  )

So as a young CAP "Security Guard" I fared quite well.  My past Sq also provides "Security" at the local warbird airshow at Madera Airport also.  Just crowd control, walking around making sure people arent places they shouldnt be, or climbing on some guys multi-million dollar Hawker Hurricane while hes in the Porta-Potty.

Never been any issues.  CAP members are told not to "confront" people.  However, asking someone to follow the rules isnt "confronting". 

[Eclipse]

Security is a law enforcement function, even when done by private resources.  CAP is not allowed to perform law enforcement functions, period.

The nomenclature is irrelevant as long as the participants understand the ROE.

What we are allowed to do is "observe and report".  Period.

What anyone from the attendees think we are doing or capable of is irrelevent.  We have our ROE, and they don't need to know where the
boundaries are, as long as we do.  In most cases, for the average person, a uniform, of any kind, and the request to stay back, is enough, when it's
not, CAP member call the LEOs on the radio and then continue with their assigned duties.

Parking cars and directing large groups of people to stay where they belong is not "security".

Next non-problem.

[754837]

Great point, RM, concerning states regulating security.  In my state, "security" people are required to be trained, certified, and licensed by the state POST Commission. They must also be insured.  Failure to do so is a misdemeanor crime.