Discussion of Moving CAP To Air Force Reserve Command

[RiverAux]

Civil Air Patrol when called up by congress or the military under title 10 orders falls under Air Education Command AETC out of Maxwell AFB. CAP is the only flying unit assigned to AETC. When CAP is not on title 10 orders it is a seperate government chartered organization.

Well, there is no such thing as "Title 10 orders" that "call up" CAP members.  Perhaps you're just using that as a short-hand to refer to Air Force Assigned Missions, but the sort of terminology you're trying to use isn't really used in CAP. 

Also can't remember the last time Congress called up CAP....

[coudano]

I take it you've never heard about the National Guard Bureau.  All 53 National Guards report to the National Guard Bureau.

Not exactly...
The NGB is a conglomerate of the 53, and it 'interfaces' the guard to the federal Army and USAF, but it doesn't hold a directive command relationship over them.

Each individual state adjutant general is responsible to his/her own governor,
not to the chief of the ngb.

[Patterson]

^ that's nice in theory, but when the FED through the NGB says "jump" every State jumps!  In fact, the Administration wants to cut National Guard personnel and Assets. 

So, how can the Federal Government cut anything, if we are following your model? 

The true intent of the Guard and Reserve was lost between Korea and 1960!!

[Patterson]

Although Im an IMA reservist with another unit I am attached as a CAP-USAF member for additional retirement points. You may wonder why you dont often see a reservist at CAP meetings events etc. Its because for the majority of the time we only get points and no pay for duty. Sometimes the Air Force comes up with some cash to provide us mandays to assist such as Cadet Encampments etc.  Most states have few if any Reservist assigned to CAP-USAF. There area active duty CAP-USAF military members but they are employed at a higher level.

Retirement points are your pay!! I see too many reservists doing nearly nothing and getting the points.  To me that's like stealing. 

[lordmonar]

Well, what does CAP do for the Air Force that they can't do for themselves?  You look at it from a WIIFM (what's in it for me) view, an honest answer has to be not a whole lot.  We don't do a whole lot for the Air Force other than supply them with recruits.  *shrug*, we do work for our community.

I'd like to see us out in the community a little more doing AE and promotion of civil aviation, but that's a personal desire...

The ES mission saves the USAF millions of dollars every year.

As far as supplying the USAF with recruits.......does anyone have hard number on how many of our cadets go on to the USAF?

In my un scientific experiance....that number is pretty low.  But maybe it is like the expense of the T-birds.....there is some intangible amount of recruiting that does happen.....even if there are hard numbers.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

CAP does a lot for the Air Force, and they would be hard pressed to find another organization that does the things we do. I don't know of anyone else that can do ELT like we do. Even if that is the only thing we do, it is a massive thing that we do.

[bflynn]

The ES mission saves the USAF millions of dollars every year.

We might do millions of dollars worth of ES missions each year, but does that contribute to the mission of the AF?  To fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace.

The Air Force has three core competencies: Developing Airmen, Technology-to-Warfighting and Integrating Operations.

These core competencies make six distinctive capabilities possible:  Air and Space Superiority, Global Attack, Rapid Global Mobility, Precision Engagement, Information Superiority, Agile Combat Support.

I don't see emergency services to the people of the United States in there. 

[johnnyb47]

The ES mission saves the USAF millions of dollars every year.

We might do millions of dollars worth of ES missions each year, but does that contribute to the mission of the AF?  To fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace.

The Air Force has three core competencies: Developing Airmen, Technology-to-Warfighting and Integrating Operations.

These core competencies make six distinctive capabilities possible:  Air and Space Superiority, Global Attack, Rapid Global Mobility, Precision Engagement, Information Superiority, Agile Combat Support.

I don't see emergency services to the people of the United States in there.

Kaffee: Corporal, would you turn to the page in this book that says where the mess hall is, please.
Cpl. Barnes: Well, Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.
Kaffee: You mean to say in all your time at Gitmo you've never had a meal?
Cpl. Barnes: No, sir. Three squares a day, sir.
Kaffee: I don't understand. How did you know where the mess hall was if it's not in this book?
Cpl. Barnes: Well, I guess I just followed the crowd at chow time, sir.
Kaffee: No more questions.

We get it. you're here to fly. Carry on, sir.

[FlyTiger77]

The ES mission saves the USAF millions of dollars every year.

...I don't see emergency services to the people of the United States in there.

You are probably looking in the wrong place then. You might find it by researching the Department of the Air Force responsibilities under Defense Support to Civil Authorities (DSCA).

DoD Directive 3025.18 is the DCSA capstone document. I would imagine there are a number of AFIs implementing the guidance of 3025.18.

The Military Departments have numerous missions besides the ones that are obvious to the casual observer.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I take it you've never heard about the National Guard Bureau.  All 53 National Guards report to the National Guard Bureau.

Not exactly...
The NGB is a conglomerate of the 53, and it 'interfaces' the guard to the federal Army and USAF, but it doesn't hold a directive command relationship over them.

Each individual state adjutant general is responsible to his/her own governor,
not to the chief of the ngb.

I knew an AF officer (mustang; MSgt who got commissioned) and his last post was at the NGB.

He said that it was what finally moved him to seek retirement.

He got tired of 50-odd Governors and Adjutant Generals jockeying for position on who got what equipment.

He said something that makes a lot of sense (and I say this as former ANG myself):

Move all the fighter/attack units and tankers into the Air Force Reserve.  What does a Governor need with a wing of F-16's?

Restructure the ANG to focus on transport/helicopter/combat SAR, because all those are things that a Governor can make use of (disaster relief, insurrection) and that the USAF can make use of.  A state can make more use of a C-130 or C-27 than an A-10.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a "resurrection" of the old Continental Air Command as an umbrella for the ANG (in Federal status), AFRES and CAP.

[abdsp51]

I don't see emergency services to the people of the United States in there.

Because it's not called ES in the AF it's called humani tarian aid/relief.  Haiti earthquake USAF first in led by the 615th CRW out of Travis.  Japan tsunami again USAF in providing a good chunk of the mission.  The folks out of Moffet Field fly SAR missions as well.  All of that can fall under agile combat support.  During Katrina AF assets flew alot of equipment into LA some of the first teams there were members of the CHP and FEMA.  For every aspect of the direct support you see there's plenty of indirect support you don't see.

[Al Sayre]

The ES mission saves the USAF millions of dollars every year.

We might do millions of dollars worth of ES missions each year, but does that contribute to the mission of the AF?  To fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace.

The Air Force has three core competencies: Developing Airmen, Technology-to-Warfighting and Integrating Operations.

These core competencies make six distinctive capabilities possible:  Air and Space Superiority, Global Attack, Rapid Global Mobility, Precision Engagement, Information Superiority, Agile Combat Support.

I don't see emergency services to the people of the United States in there.

True, but CAP doing ES and chasing ELT's supports the Rapid Global Mobility and Agile Combat Support capabilities.  If we weren't doing it, how many Airmen and aircraft would be tied up around the country chasing ELT's at 0200 instead of fixing and flying their aircraft and performing their other missions?  How much would it cost to stand up even a small flight to perform those duties at every base in the country?  That's why CAP is a force multiplier. 

What we can do for $50 (gas) with 2 guys in a van (UDF team) and one (IC) sitting at his kitchen table drinking coffee in his boxers and waiting for the phone to ring, would cost the USAF several thousand dollars by the time they add up all the costs of supporting 2 Airmen in a van (UDF team) and an Officer of the Day (IC)sitting in an office drinking coffee and waiting for the phone to ring...

[bflynn]

If we weren't doing it, how many Airmen and aircraft would be tied up around the country chasing ELT's at 0200 instead of fixing and flying their aircraft and performing their other missions?  How much would it cost to stand up even a small flight to perform those duties at every base in the country? 

None?  Why do you assume that the AF would chase down ELTs if CAP didn't? 

I'm not being flippant about this, but it's obvious that the purpose of the Air Force is air superiority.  They have a strategic mission that is agnostic to what tactical conditions are being seen at individual locations in the country.  ES or human aid or whatever...logistics support, whatever...is done as an afterthought, because they can.  It isn't a requirement that they do this.

They're about security for our country...not chasing down ELTs that someone threw in the back of their boat.

[FlyTiger77]

If we weren't doing it, how many Airmen and aircraft would be tied up around the country chasing ELT's at 0200 instead of fixing and flying their aircraft and performing their other missions?  How much would it cost to stand up even a small flight to perform those duties at every base in the country? 

None?  Why do you assume that the AF would chase down ELTs if CAP didn't? 

I'm not being flippant about this, but it's obvious that the purpose of the Air Force is air superiority.  They have a strategic mission that is agnostic to what tactical conditions are being seen at individual locations in the country.  ES or human aid or whatever...logistics support, whatever...is done as an afterthought, because they can.  It isn't a requirement that they do this.

They're about security for our country...not chasing down ELTs that someone threw in the back of their boat.

Again, I would remind you that the Military Departments (which obviously includes the Department of the Air Force) have a responsibility under DSCA:

You are probably looking in the wrong place then. You might find it by researching the Department of the Air Force responsibilities under Defense Support to Civil Authorities (DSCA).

DoD Directive 3025.18 is the DCSA capstone document. I would imagine there are a number of AFIs implementing the guidance of 3025.18.

The Military Departments have numerous missions besides the ones that are obvious to the casual observer.

A directive from the Secretary of Defense is not normally viewed as either optional or an afterthought by most military officers and/or organizations. I am not sure of your background or experience, but these are activities that the Military Departments put a good deal of thought and manpower behind.

[abdsp51]

If we weren't doing it, how many Airmen and aircraft would be tied up around the country chasing ELT's at 0200 instead of fixing and flying their aircraft and performing their other missions?  How much would it cost to stand up even a small flight to perform those duties at every base in the country? 

None?  Why do you assume that the AF would chase down ELTs if CAP didn't? 

I'm not being flippant about this, but it's obvious that the purpose of the Air Force is air superiority.  They have a strategic mission that is agnostic to what tactical conditions are being seen at individual locations in the country.  ES or human aid or whatever...logistics support, whatever...is done as an afterthought, because they can.  It isn't a requirement that they do this.

They're about security for our country...not chasing down ELTs that someone threw in the back of their boat.

So beg to differ, humanitarian aid is a huge part of what the US military does in conjunction with national security.  There are so many facets that average Joe doesn't see on a day to day basis.  World wide the DOD provides support in many different aspects.  Simply because you don't see or hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  And security takes many different forms and guises. 

[bflynn]

I'm not disputing that the Air Force has been directed to cover something.

But that doesn't make it part of their core mission or part of their focus.  My boss can direct me to make sure the trash is taken out daily and I'll do it, but taking care of clients is still my primacy focus and what I'm interested in.  The rest is an inconvience because it detracts from doing the part that makes me money.

[abdsp51]

I'm not disputing that the Air Force has been directed to cover something.

But that doesn't make it part of their core mission or part of their focus.  My boss can direct me to make sure the trash is taken out daily and I'll do it, but taking care of clients is still my primacy focus and what I'm interested in.  The rest is an inconvience because it detracts from doing the part that makes me money.

You're still missing the point humanitarian aide/relief is part of the AF's mission.  Missions change as does the big picture.  National Security is both in and outside the borders and even CAP's ES is more that SAR. 

[lordmonar]

The ES mission saves the USAF millions of dollars every year.

We might do millions of dollars worth of ES missions each year, but does that contribute to the mission of the AF?  To fly, fight and win...in air, space and cyberspace.

Every mission we fly for the USAF is one less that they have to fly.  Freeing them up to train and fly combat missions.
In military Jargon....CAP is a Force Multiplier.

The Air Force has three core competencies: Developing Airmen, Technology-to-Warfighting and Integrating Operations.

These core competencies make six distinctive capabilities possible:  Air and Space Superiority, Global Attack, Rapid Global Mobility, Precision Engagement, Information Superiority, Agile Combat Support.

I don't see emergency services to the people of the United States in there.

Just because you don't see....does not mean it is not there.

[lordmonar]

If we weren't doing it, how many Airmen and aircraft would be tied up around the country chasing ELT's at 0200 instead of fixing and flying their aircraft and performing their other missions?  How much would it cost to stand up even a small flight to perform those duties at every base in the country? 

None?  Why do you assume that the AF would chase down ELTs if CAP didn't?

Because in land SAR....at least for missing aircraft is a USAF responsiblity.

I'm not being flippant about this, but it's obvious that the purpose of the Air Force is air superiority.  They have a strategic mission that is agnostic to what tactical conditions are being seen at individual locations in the country.  ES or human aid or whatever...logistics support, whatever...is done as an afterthought, because they can.  It isn't a requirement that they do this.

They're about security for our country...not chasing down ELTs that someone threw in the back of their boat.

And of course the USAF is solely focusted on just the narrow definition of Air Superiority.
I mean it is not like the the USAF does any counter drug missions.....oh wait.
I mean it is not like the USAF does any weather survailance missions....oh wait.
It is not like the USAF is into RD missions....oh wait.
It is not like the USAF does any disaster releif missions....oh wait.

SAR is a responsiblity of the USAF.....hence the rescue squadrons and AFRCC.
CAP as I said before....CAP is a force multiplier because we take up the domestic over land SAR mission from the rescue squadrons.
Thereby saving the USAF millions in cost differences.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, does that mean that I can call the local Air Force base for personnel when I'm short on aircrew members? 

There are very few CAP missions that the AF would actually do with its own personnel if we weren't here.  The AFRCC would just call the state and say, "hey there is an airplane missing in your state.  If you need some federal resources give us a call.  Good luck".