Senior Member D&C

♠SARKID♠ · August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM

What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation. When we have guests or prospective members come in, the cadets look great during opening ceremonies, reporting, etc. But when the senior members fall into a flight for opening, awards, etc they look pretty unorganized and shoddy. Im not saying that they should have to practice D&C every week like cadets, but shouldnt they have to take a course or two so that they at least look professional and like they know what they're doing? Im sorry if I offend any senior members out there, im not saying you look bad, and I wouldnt be surprised if my squadron is just an isolated case. But if the general consensus is that they need some work, I think they should take a class or two. Whether your a cadet or senior you represent CAP whenever you're in uniform and having proper D&C (and customs & courtesies for that matter!) is an important part of our image. What are your opinions on the subject?

IceNine · August 28, 2007, 04:01:47 PM

You are absolutely correct seniors as a general rule look like C/Basics on their first day with a uniform on. There are the obvious exceptions of former cadets, former military and such...But.

So to correct this problem I, in my role as Deputy Commander of Seniors have my seniors fall in for opening ceremonies EVERY week, and they get inspected. And once a quarter we do DNC for an hour. I got a lot of flack for it for quite a while but once the cadets started talking about how good the seniors looked, they started to take a little pride in the uniforms etc.

♠SARKID♠ · August 28, 2007, 04:04:42 PM

thats good to hear. Im thinking about proposing something like that to my squadron commander.

IceNine · August 28, 2007, 04:08:25 PM

Walk softly when you do. Ask for a trial period not just implementation, be sure to explain the benefits on a larger scale. Seniors that look professional are looked upon by the community as more professional and therefore will be used in larger capacities by professional organizations. Etc...

I can tell you you will most likely meet some/ a ton of resistance. be persistant and approach it from different angles until you find the hot button that works for our CC

floridacyclist · August 28, 2007, 04:12:25 PM

In our case, we're implementing it during OTS. Hopefully the older officers will start to catch on from the newer officers.

Stonewall · August 28, 2007, 04:13:44 PM

An easy way (excuse) to slowly bring up the topic is to hold a squadron formation for the purposes of promoting someone, seniors and/or cadets. When the seniors get into their "senior flight", start with giving them some guidance. Then bring up the need for a little bit of training; call it a "quick and dirty" orientation to D&C so they can be better prepared for situations like promotion ceremonies.

Go from there.

Even go so far as suggesting a drill competition between seniors and cadets. I've done that before and it worked. Seniors won!

dwb · August 28, 2007, 04:14:52 PM

One of the things I'd like to do "someday" is write a basic guide to military ceremony and courtesies aimed at senior members.

What does a senior really need to know?

- How to stand at attention
- How to salute
- Reporting procedures
- The "grip and grin" (giving/receiving awards)
- Wearing the uniform properly

That's about it. The senior member program has different goals than the cadet program, and I don't expect seniors to be the drill pad geeks that a lot of cadets are.

Bascially, you want the "don't embarass me" class... here are the n things that you, as a senior member of the USAF auxiliary, are going to be expected to know about the military ceremony stuff.

ddelaney103 · August 28, 2007, 04:17:36 PM

I don't see the point to a lot of drill for seniors. However, there are a few basic things they should know:

- saluting: who and how

- how to fall into a flight and attention/parade rest/at ease

- How to leave the flight to come "front and center." Getting there, saluting, taking the award, saluting, getting back

I wouldn't get too much into marching - just some instruction on walking in uniform and saluting

IceNine · August 28, 2007, 04:22:19 PM

I disagree the old adage that "knowledge is power" is very true in this case. It is better for the seniors to know too much than too little. It is not difficult to learn these maneuvers, and then you can do anything you want with your newly formed corp of senior drillers

JC004 · August 28, 2007, 04:28:39 PM

I'm working on a D&C course for the e-Learning site if anyone wants to help with that. My basis for it is the AF D&C DVDs that I have from AETC.

My thought was having it for Senior Members mostly since cadets already have it as part of their program.

♠SARKID♠ · August 28, 2007, 04:45:10 PM

It seems that everyone has generally the same idea - "Teach them what they need to know, but dont make them into drill junkies". It seems like a sound idea. Like I said earlier, Im just aiming for them to be presentable to the public and to be able to set a good example for cadets. The "dont embarass me" point of view is basically what im aiming for

floridacyclist · August 28, 2007, 04:46:57 PM

We figure that the Curry level of performance was acceptable....and lets us recycle the training materials and standards from the cadet side of the house.

Pylon · August 28, 2007, 05:35:48 PM

Basic D&C knowledge would be good for senior members who either work with cadets or find themselves in-line for a command position. However, there are plenty of senior members who contribute in other ways, such as just being a pilot, or the admin officer, etc. who would never use D&C. Even in a formation, the most that many of these volunteers would need to be asked to do would be to stand at attention.

D&C is already an optional workshop of TLC and appearance and basics of customs & courtesies are touched upon in Level I. Could it beefed up? Sure; as could most all of Level I material.

Nomex Maximus · August 28, 2007, 05:55:29 PM

Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation.
. . .

Mandatory D&C would cause me to stop coming to meetings. I'd probably quit CAP. I am here to search for lost airplanes, disaster relief, counter drug and homeland security. There is enough nonsense in those activities alone without having to be told how to walk in a straight line.

--Nomex

dwb · August 28, 2007, 06:01:33 PM

Nomex, I think he may be referring to the "C" more than the "D".

If a cadet renders a salute, you should know how to respond to that properly. If you walk into a classroom and someone calls it to Attention, you should know why and what to do next. If you receive an award at a banquet, it's helpful not to trip over one's own feet.

I (think) those are the kinds of situations we're trying to prepare people for... things that all senior members probably have to face at some point.

IceNine · August 28, 2007, 06:13:57 PM

Quote from: Nomex Maximus on August 28, 2007, 05:55:29 PM
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on August 28, 2007, 03:53:32 PM
What do you guys think of having senior members take a manditory basic Drill and Ceremonies class? The seniors at my squadron (there are many because we are in conjunction with a large senior squadron) are good people, but they lack in military presentation.
. . .

Mandatory D&C would cause me to stop coming to meetings. I'd probably quit CAP. I am here to search for lost airplanes, disaster relief, counter drug and homeland security. There is enough nonsense in those activities alone without having to be told how to walk in a straight line.

--Nomex

So join a unit without cadets and represent yourself and your unit however you want.

Regardless of how nonsensical you think these things are it IS, no matter what excuses you offer, important to be as professional if not more so than the cadets that look up to us.

Sarkid- This is exactly the type of resistance I was trying to describe... Just push on!

Flying Pig · August 28, 2007, 06:37:17 PM

I would like to see a basic performance of drill be a requirement for 2Lt. It takes me 2-3 meetings to get a basic cadet up to speed to pass the Curry. Makes sense.

I agree with Stonewalls approach. Start off with formations then ease into it.

flyguy06 · August 28, 2007, 06:42:30 PM

I think its a great idea in theory. But in my squadron most of the senior members are over 70 yeras old. They will quickly tell you that you cant "mandate" anything in Civil Air Patrol. I think its a crappy attitude to have but they look at me a youn senior member.

My seniors have never fell into formation. For them, they just come at the scheduled time and go into their room and meet. There are no formations. Half of them dont wear uniforms. I try to set the example for the few cadets I have though

Nomex Maximus · August 28, 2007, 06:45:31 PM

MFD1506 - He asked for opinions and I gave him mine. If there is only one correct opinion, then there is not much point is ASKING for opinions.

How about making it mandatory for ES seniors to come to actual missions? That'd be a great improvement...

IceNine · August 28, 2007, 07:33:05 PM

I don't disagree with your opinion I disagree with the way you presented it.

Nothing gets to me quicker than people saying "I'm here to do what I want and you can't tell me otherwise"

And you saying "if you tell me what to do I'll just leave" is exactly the attitude prevents foreward motion, and change in this organization. If you want any changes, ES included, there is no room for stubbornness.