The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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Storm Chaser

Quote from: Marvin on July 09, 2014, 07:20:10 AM
I find it so odd, if not ludicrous, that members are required to "obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here" and goes on to describe those two options, but fails to ever require them to be worn.  True, there are certain situations, such as specified in 1.2.4 where A uniform must be worn, but even in those, one could easily wear another combination and satisfy the reg.  If one maintains and wears, for example, a flight duty uniform for aircrew duties and a Class B long sleeve shirt combination, that minimum short sleeve shirt will never be worn.  Yet the regs say it must be owned and maintained. 

Perhaps the intent of the reg. was that members should "obtain and maintain one of the uniform combinations appropriate for intended involvment..." but that, of course is not what is prescribed....

If CAPM 39-1 prescribed that a particular uniform combination be worn for a given event, it would interfere with the commander's prerogative to prescribe which uniform will be worn for particular events. That said, CAPM 39-1 is clear that the minimum basic uniforms "meet the requirements of most CAP events." What that means is that, while commanders retain the authority and discretion to prescribe the uniform to be worn, in most instances the minimum basic uniform would be acceptable.

I doubt many commanders would prohibit that the minimum basic uniform be worn to weekly meetings, although they still retain the authority to "specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions." CAPM 39-1 also states that commanders will "refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements."

Shuman 14

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 07, 2014, 03:23:57 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:59:24 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 02, 2014, 06:54:32 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:52:47 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.

Then why are they now standard on an Army shirt, sewn in?  ::)

Seriously I've been on many a Joint base and I see every Service wearing military creases on their uniforms, what are you frakking talking about?

We're not the Army either. Last I checked, we're the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary and the Air Force does not allow military creases on their uniforms.

Still doesn't change the fact that every other Service allows it... so why is the USAF the odd man out on this one?
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

lordmonar

Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Shuman 14

Quote from: PHall on July 07, 2014, 04:19:41 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 07, 2014, 04:12:21 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 07, 2014, 03:28:29 AM
Only the Air National Guard is allowed state awards on the Air Force uniform.

And then only when not in Federal status.  A lot of Air Guard members have two sets of ribbons - one with state awards, one without.

I am not sure how the Army does it for their Guard personnel.

Same way, can't wear "State" awards on a "Federal" uniform.

You are correct... officially... but I routinely see current and former Guardsmen, on Title 10 status, wearing their State awards.

Most likely because the Army lives in ACUs these days. The only time you see most Soldiers outside of MDW in ASU or Dress Blues is at a formal function.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:22:06 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 07, 2014, 03:23:57 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:59:24 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on July 02, 2014, 06:54:32 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:52:47 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

You actually can order for people of "size" thru AAFES... it's a special order but it can be done.

Lots of other places to go online to order them too just google "ASU white shirt".

Breaking that "notion" is what needs to be done... it's a uniform, there needs to be uniformity.

BTW, why are military creases not authorized on a para-military organization's uniform shirts?  ???

Because we ain't Marines. They are the only service branch that has those creases.

Then why are they now standard on an Army shirt, sewn in?  ::)

Seriously I've been on many a Joint base and I see every Service wearing military creases on their uniforms, what are you frakking talking about?

We're not the Army either. Last I checked, we're the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary and the Air Force does not allow military creases on their uniforms.

Still doesn't change the fact that every other Service allows it... so why is the USAF the odd man out on this one?

Because they can. And what makes you think that those of us in the Air Force want to look more like the Army or another service anyway? I could ask you the same about the Army's overuse of badges and insignias on their uniform, which no other service does. But that's the Army's uniform and they can do what they want. The Air Force is not the Army. We, as the Air Force Auxiliary, wearing an Air Force uniform with CAP insignias, should be emulating our parent service and no other.

Shuman 14

Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:26:40 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.

True.

I was simply exploring a cost effective shirt alternative for the G/W, one that is readily available and accessible to CAP members that would provide a measure of uniformity.

The "minor" sticking point seems to be the military creases, a point that could be overlooked "if" CAP wanted to.

Yet some want to turn this into an Army vs. USAF debate which really was not the point.

See the post directly above, to more clearly illustrate this.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:31:56 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.

But not at the same time, which is what the Army practically does.

lordmonar

We already got an acceptable shirt.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Shuman 14

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:31:56 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.

But not at the same time, which is what the Army practically does.

The Army has limits too... four badges.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:26:40 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.

True.

I was simply exploring a cost effective shirt alternative for the G/W, one that is readily available and accessible to CAP members that would provide a measure of uniformity.

The "minor" sticking point seems to be the military creases, a point that could be overlooked "if" CAP wanted to.

Yet some want to turn this into an Army vs. USAF debate which really was not the point.

Maybe not your point, but many other CAP members would like to embrace the Army way were every badge or insignia earned goes on the uniform. That's simply not the Air Force way.

Shuman 14

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:43:22 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:26:40 PM
Because they don't like them?   Who knows....not nearly the point here.

True.

I was simply exploring a cost effective shirt alternative for the G/W, one that is readily available and accessible to CAP members that would provide a measure of uniformity.

The "minor" sticking point seems to be the military creases, a point that could be overlooked "if" CAP wanted to.

Yet some want to turn this into an Army vs. USAF debate which really was not the point.

Maybe not your point, but many other CAP members would like to embrace the Army way were every badge or insignia earned goes on the uniform. That's simply not the Air Force way.

Oh I concur, too much bling looks bad.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

#493
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:42:24 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 09, 2014, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:31:56 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 08, 2014, 06:27:22 PM
CAP is not a state organization and, while I'm not opposed state awards on the uniform, I'm not sure I see the need for it. In fact, I don't see the need for many currently authorized insignias that have no relevance to CAP or CAP's missions.

CAP may be the Air Force Auxiliary, but when it comes to the uniform, members want us to be more like the Army where almost every insignia earned is worn. The results are not always pretty.

Well with the current update to the USAF's Uniform Instruction, that's what you've got... every medal, ribbon, and badge awarded by the US Armed Forces is authorized on the uniform.

But not at the same time, which is what the Army practically does.

The Army has limits too... four badges.

Since I'm not familiar with Army regulations, I won't argue that. That said, all you have to do is look at the Army service dress and compare it with the Air Force's; you'll see many other insignias, patches and uniform items on it, worn all the time. Some badges are worn over the pockets, others above it, with different setup combinations. I've also seen Soldiers with three badges above the U.S. Army tape on the ACU, while Airmen are only allowed two on the ABU. I've never seen the Marine Corps or the Navy wear as many insignias either as I've seen the Army.

The again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.

foo

Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:43:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.

All you have to do is read the document that is the very subject of this thread:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

4.2.5.1 (page 60)

Shuman 14

Quote from: neummy on July 09, 2014, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:43:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.

All you have to do is read the document that is the very subject of this thread:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

4.2.5.1 (page 60)

My point exactly.

Unlike the USAF-style uniform, which has an authorized shirt, the G/W has authorized shirts.

Which means there is a lack of uniformity.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

QuoteThe again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.

Yet CAP authorizes more badges to be worn at one time than the USAF.  ???
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 01:12:58 PM
Quote from: neummy on July 09, 2014, 12:56:25 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 12:43:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 09, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
We already got an acceptable shirt.

Please cite the the make, model and specifications please.

All you have to do is read the document that is the very subject of this thread:

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf

4.2.5.1 (page 60)

My point exactly.

Unlike the USAF-style uniform, which has an authorized shirt, the G/W has authorized shirts.

Which means there is a lack of uniformity.

While that is true and it's viewed as a problem to some, it's also viewed as a benefit to others, cost and availability through multiple commercial sources being the primary concern.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: shuman14 on July 09, 2014, 01:14:34 PM
QuoteThe again, that's their uniform as I stated before and they can wear whatever they want. My original point was that, if we're going to emulate a service, it should be the Air Force and no other, as we're the Air Force Auxiliary.

Yet CAP authorizes more badges to be worn at one time than the USAF.  ???

Not true. Please read CAPM 39-1; with the exception of the command badge, only four badges can be worn at any given time. There's also specific placement of those badges. Where CAP departs from the Air Force is with number of patches authorized on the BDU.

Luis R. Ramos

I thought the Air Force had a maximum of four badges in their uniform, am I wrong?

CAPM 39-1 states "not more than four badges."

If USAF=max of four badges and CAP=max of four badges, how does that makes it USAF amount of badges on uniform =/= amount of CAP badges on uniform?
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