The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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Ned

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:24:29 PM
QuoteIf you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.


As it turns out CAP doesn't really have a horse in this race.  The "no military decorations on corporate uniforms" rule was imposed by CAP-USAF based on an opinion by their JAG interpreting the AF rules about wearing military decorations on civilian attire.

I've spoken with the CAP-USAF commander and the particular JAG involved, and believe the opinon is incorrect, but they were unpursuaded.

So the rule remains until we can convince CAP-USAF otherwise.

(And I submit that publicly calling the rule "ignorant" or "stupid" will not be helpful in that regard.  Well-researched white papers properly submitted through channels, however . . . .)

Ned Lee
Member at Large, NUC

SARDOC

Quote from: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 07:04:37 PM
In many cases the persons who are wearing the corporate uniforms have never served in the military, so they are still prevented from wearing their CAP awards

That may be the case in your neck of the woods.  My Squadron has a number of Military Retirees and Veterans...  It goes along with being in a military town.  Most wear the Corporates some for Grooming Standards (don't want to be required to do the maintenance after over 20 years of service) Some like me who don't meet the Weight Standard... for various reasons.

SARDOC

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:24:29 PM
QuoteIf you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.

So there are several SDFs that authorize the wear of both CAP and USCGAux decorations on their uniforms, showing that they have a great respect for the service of the Military Auxiliaries, yet CAP's regulations would prevent a current CAP member, who is also a member of one those SDFs, from wearing those decorations?

In a word... stupid.

The SDF in my state does not recognize CAP or CGAUX awards...because they aren't "Military".  It has to go with the "Awarding Authority"  Not, saying I agree or disagree with it.  Not being in the SDF it doesn't really impact me.

SARDOC

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\

I had a couple of State Awards and a couple of federal awards listed on my NGB22...  I wore the federal ones and not the state, because it depended on which status you were in which ribbon rack to pick.  I never bothered.

Shuman 14

Quote from: Ned on July 02, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:24:29 PM
QuoteIf you wear anything resembling a CAP uniform in the corporate variant(s), no military decs or badges are allowed,
nor are members allowed to wear CAP dec or badges on anything which is not a CAP "uniform" in one of its variants.

That's the most ignorant rule...EVER.


As it turns out CAP doesn't really have a horse in this race.  The "no military decorations on corporate uniforms" rule was imposed by CAP-USAF based on an opinion by their JAG interpreting the AF rules about wearing military decorations on civilian attire.

I've spoken with the CAP-USAF commander and the particular JAG involved, and believe the opinon is incorrect, but they were unpursuaded.

So the rule remains until we can convince CAP-USAF otherwise.

(And I submit that publicly calling the rule "ignorant" or "stupid" will not be helpful in that regard.  Well-researched white papers properly submitted through channels, however . . . .)

Ned Lee
Member at Large, NUC

And if that doesn't sum up the second class status of those required to wear Grey/Whites... the USAF considers it "civilian attire" and not a uniform.  :(
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Ned

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 10:40:56 PM
And if that doesn't sum up the second class status of those required to wear Grey/Whites... the USAF considers it "civilian attire" and not a uniform.  :(

I don't think that is a fair assessment. 

The terms "uniform" and "civilian attire" are not necessarily inconsistent when the clothing in question is being worn by a civilian.  In other words, it could be both.

The JAG based the opinion on relevant USAF OIs.  It was not a snap judgment, but a reasoned legal opinon.

Like I said, I disagreed with it, but your characterization of the opinion is not fair.

Salty

Seems to me the USAF-like uniforms CAP members wear would be "civilian" uniforms just like the G/W combo.  I fail to see the distinction between the two other than the color of the fabric.
CAP Cadet 1989-1994
CAP Senior Member 1994-1995, 2011-current
USAF Aeromedical Technician 1994-1998

lordmonar

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: Salty on July 02, 2014, 11:04:19 PM
Seems to me the USAF-like uniforms CAP members wear would be "civilian" uniforms just like the G/W combo.  I fail to see the distinction between the two other than the color of the fabric.
Unfortunately.......it is not your understanding of the law, regs and OIs that counts.
The CAP-USAF CC went to this JAG...who provided an opinion.

It was CAP-USAF's decision........to follow his JAG's professional advice.

You really can't fault the guy for following his expert's advice.

If you disagree with it....as Ned said......a well written and researched White Paper would be your best bet.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SARDOC

Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2014, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 02, 2014, 09:30:51 PM
They do. They also prevent CAP National Guard members from wearing state decoration on thier CAP uniforms.

Another silly rule but one that the Active Duty also has.

I never understood that, it is "ok" to wear the decorations of a foreign nation on an Active Duty uniform but it is "not ok" to wear one from an actual State of the United States.  :-\
......Approved awards from a foreign nation......usually earned while on duty with the U.S. Military.
But that's the rub.
The states have a lot of power about what they do with their uniforms.....and the Federal Military have no power to stop them.   That's why the SDFs get away with what they do.
But the Federal Services do have power over State Troops when on Federal Service.....hence the no state awards on military uniforms.

I wonder why no one has pointed out that the USAF does not let it's members wear CAP ribbons on the AD/RES uniforms?

I would have been sure that the "they must hate us" guys would have clued in on that one long ago.

The Federal Government does have a say so over the SDF uniforms. 

Quote from:  AR 670-1c. State Defense Forces (SDF) may adopt the service uniform and the utility uniform, provided all service uniform
buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S.
Army. State insignia will not include “United States,” “U.S.”, “U.S. Army”, or the Great Seal of the United States.
Personnel of the SDF may wear a State-designed SDF distinguishing badge or insignia centered on the left pocket flap.
The red nametape or nameplate will include the full title of the SDF (for example, “Texas State Guard”). The utility
uniforms will contain a State SDF tape in lieu of “U.S. Army” over the left breast pocket. States wishing to adopt the
Army service and utility uniforms will register with the Chief, National Guard Bureau.

The army doesn't inflict H+W uniform standards on the SDF Volunteers though.   

Mitchell 1969

#430
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 07:00:04 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 06:35:50 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:25:51 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?


No, that's fine, even specified sometimes.  It's the wear of CAP decs and badges on that attire which is prohibited.

And confusing.

An ex-military CAP person can attend a CAP event and wear:

1)CAP blazer with bow tie and ONE CAP miniature medal; OR
2) Civilian suit, sport coat, blazer (non-CAP) or no coat at all, with regular tie, bow tie, bolo tie or no tie at all, with all of his earned military medals, but no CAP medals.

["You don't have to put them on only if you're in a parade," said VA Secretary Jim Nicholson. "Wear them when you go play golf. Wear them when you go to the store. Let America know that you took that oath and served." (October, 2006).]


_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Shuman 14

Quote from: SARDOC on July 02, 2014, 11:51:46 PM


The Federal Government does have a say so over the SDF uniforms. 

Quote from:  AR 670-1c. State Defense Forces (SDF) may adopt the service uniform and the utility uniform, provided all service uniform
buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S.
Army. State insignia will not include "United States," "U.S.", "U.S. Army", or the Great Seal of the United States.
Personnel of the SDF may wear a State-designed SDF distinguishing badge or insignia centered on the left pocket flap.
The red nametape or nameplate will include the full title of the SDF (for example, "Texas State Guard"). The utility
uniforms will contain a State SDF tape in lieu of "U.S. Army" over the left breast pocket. States wishing to adopt the
Army service and utility uniforms will register with the Chief, National Guard Bureau.

The army doesn't inflict H+W uniform standards on the SDF Volunteers though.

That only applies to SDF Ground Component Commands (i.e. Army) and does not cover SDF Airwings or Naval militias.

Most GCC's replace the following with:

US Seal buttons with State Seal buttons

Hat Badge replaces the thirteen stars with a State Seal (barracks/service cover)

Beret blue patch replaced with red version (NY uses grey)

U.S. collar brass replaced with two letter State initials (California uses a gold "U.S." with a superimposed black enamel "CA" on top of it)

Red nametag replaces black nametag (California uses maroon and I think NY uses Grey)

Army Branch insignia is often replaced with a crossed musket and saber insignia

on ACU's the Army tape is replaced with a State tape and the US Flag with a State Flag.

At first glance it's really hard to tell a SDF GCC from an Army Soldier.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

The CyBorg is destroyed

#432
Quote from: Ned on July 02, 2014, 09:58:58 PM
Well-researched white papers properly submitted through channels, however . . . .

Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 09:40:10 PM
I don't understand that one either... you'd think the two Auxiliaries would respect each others service more.  :-\

Having been a member of both Auxiliaries, it is correct that CAP ribbons, devices etc. cannot be worn on the CGAUX uniform.

However, as to the reverse, it depends on who you ask.

I have asked two former unit commanders, both prior-service retired (one USMC SNCO and one USN CWO) about this.

Both of them said exactly the same thing: that they could find nothing directly prohibiting it in CAPR's, and that, since the awarding authority for CGAUX ribbons comes from the Commandant, USCG, through the Chief Director Auxiliary (a USCG Captain), that counts as "competent military authority."

I have worn CGAUX ribbons (after all CAP ribbons) and the single USCG ribbon (before CAP ribbons) I earned as an Auxiliarist on the CAP/AF blue uniform and have never been challenged on it, even by wing commanders who have seen it.  If said ladies and gentlemen had ordered me not to wear them, the order would have been obeyed.

A lot of ANG people I've known have had two sets of ribbon racks - one with both Federal and State ribbons, and the other with just Federal.

Quote from: shuman14 on July 03, 2014, 12:45:20 AM
At first glance it's really hard to tell a SDF GCC from an Army Soldier.

It's equally hard to tell Air/Naval SDF's from their AD counterparts.


Command Chief Master Sergeant Charles W. Collier, California State Military Reserve.  I don't see anything distinctive other than the red nameplate.  I can't tell about his collar brass.


RDML Robin E. Osborn, Ohio Naval Militia
Other than the small circular badge centred on Admiral Osborn's left breast, I just see a Navy officer.

The Texas State Guard Maritime Regiment is even allowed to use the Marines' EGA with "TX" superimposed, which surprised the heck out of me given the Marines' intense protectiveness of said symbol.



Disclaimer: None of these citations is meant in any way to demean, dishonour or disrespect the achievements of the individuals given as examples, or to any member of an SDF. 

I also know that SDF's serve under their State Military Justice Codes.  However, to the best of my knowledge, none are trained as actual combat troops (someone please correct me if I'm incorrect); DR is a big part of their mission (as with ours) as well as support to their State's National Guard.

But it does not look to me like the Army, Navy or Air Force impose any real "distinctiveness" requirements on them as are imposed on us, and I certainly don't know of "alternative" uniforms they have to wear.

NOTE: On closer examination (and use of bifocals) I can see the "CA" collar brass on the Command Chief Master Sergeant's uniform.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on July 03, 2014, 01:47:40 AM
Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 01:57:19 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 03, 2014, 01:47:40 AM
Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

I said can, not would.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on July 03, 2014, 01:58:27 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 01:57:19 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on July 03, 2014, 01:47:40 AM
Colonel, I am sure you know as well as I do that any white paper submitted on any topic can, at any level, end up in the CS file without notification, much less feedback on the contents.

Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

I said can, not would.
So what is the problem?
You can always follow up.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 01:57:19 AM
Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

And you know it was your suggestion that prompted the change and not 100 other people simultaneously submitting something self-evident?


"That Others May Zoom"

PHall

Cyborg, look a little closer to Chief Collier's collar brass. They say CA not US.

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on July 03, 2014, 02:05:28 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 03, 2014, 01:57:19 AM
Not true.

I did a proper suggestion through my chain for a change to the uniform that was adopted by the NB.   So, sorry your statement is wrong.

And you know it was your suggestion that prompted the change and not 100 other people simultaneously submitting something self-evident?
Yes....because I sent it to my Wing CC who put it on the agenda, presented it to the NB and the NB voted on it while we were getting updates in more or less real time.

:)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

abdsp51

And what was the recommendation?