The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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Eclipse

#380
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

According to who? You? If Air Force traditions have no place in CAP, perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all. Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either. After all, they're not really needed to perform CAP missions, with the exception of maybe Cadet Programs. And we can always follow the JROTC model and have reservists or retired military lead that program. When did CAP become all about the "bling"?

This AF tradition is just that, a tradition. Even in the AF, if officers want to wear their ribbons on the service uniform, they can. It's just not very common. But unless a particular activity or event requires that members not wear their ribbons, they're welcome to do so anytime, just like in CAP. Can we just stop making everything into a controversy?

Not >all< traditions, >this< tradition.  CAP doesn't even have an NCO program, yet the tradition says only NCOs wear ribbons on their shirts,
while at the same time a large portion of the membership can >only< wear ribbons on their shirt and no where else.

The USAF also has a tradition of aircrew wearing brown A2 jackets, but that's verboten in CAP.

Their culture is "up or out" not " stick around", but that's not how CAP works.

Etc., etc.

If a USAF tradition or practice "works", fine. This one doesn't in a CAP context.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:07:39 PMperhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all.
There are strong arguments for this, though that isn't necessarily a good idea.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either.
If you can't wear it, why award it?

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
When did CAP become all about the "bling"?
An interesting question considering how "colorful" your forum signature is.

It's always fun to have people who "can" suggest to people who "can't" why something they "can't" isn't important.

"That Others May Zoom"

Shuman 14

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:20:14 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 02:21:57 AM
Those without the choice are left unable to display their plumage in the same way that those
who can wear the USAF styles do.  In fact, they pretty much can't wear them at all to formal
functions since the blazer doesn't allow it.

So Maj Fat and Fuzzy, who is the backbone of the wing, devotes 40 hours a week to CAP,
as well as being encampment staff and devoting his 2-weeks vacation every year to an NCSA
can't wear a "real" uniform to the banquets or PiRs, while Lt Twice A Year can do so whenever he please.

Or the good major is the commander of an even on a military base, and is forced to
wear the Realtor jacket while his subordinates all wear their brightest service dress.

And before you say "it shouldn't matter", maybe not, but it does, especially to newer guys with no choice,
especially since the rules are both arbitrary, and largely (pun intended) ignored by the very leadership
charged with enforcing them.

Quite well stated, sir.  I was hoping the new 39-1 would address this somehow, but obviously they chose not to.

They could rent a civilian tuxedo and wear all their mini-medals on it.

All the Services, including the USAF, have clear regulations on wearing decorations on civilian formal attire.

Generally that is wearing mini-medals only, no badges and ribbon only awards, worn on the lapel of the tails coat or over the left pocket  of the dinner jacket.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

Storm Chaser

No matter which option we take with the uniform, someone will disagree and be upset. Let's review the most common ones discussed here on CAP Talk:


  • Air Force-Style Only - We would have to either let half of our membership go or not allow them to wear a uniform.
  • Corporate-Style Only - Half of our members that currently wear the Air Force-style uniform would be displeased; many would probably leave. It would separate us further from the U.S. Air Force.
  • Improve Corporate-Style - This seems to be the better solution, but many members would complain about the increased cost involved.
  • Status Quo - Well, we got a new CAPM 39-1 that basically preserved the status quo and many members are still not pleased.

This is an over simplified list, but I think illustrate that no matter which decision is made, someone will be displeased and complain about it.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:20:28 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

According to who? You? If Air Force traditions have no place in CAP, perhaps we shouldn't be wearing an Air Force uniform at all. Perhaps we shouldn't have grades or badges or awards either. After all, they're not really needed to perform CAP missions, with the exception of maybe Cadet Programs. And we can always follow the JROTC model and have reservists or retired military lead that program. When did CAP become all about the "bling"?

This AF tradition is just that, a tradition. Even in the AF, if officers want to wear their ribbons on the service uniform, they can. It's just not very common. But unless a particular activity or event requires that members not wear their ribbons, they're welcome to do so anytime, just like in CAP. Can we just stop making everything into a controversy?

Not >all< traditions, >this< tradition.  CAP doesn't even have an NCO program, yet the tradition says only NCOs wear ribbons on their shirts,
while at the same time a large portion of the membership can >only< wear ribbons on their shirt and no where else.

The tradition is not that NCOs get to wear their ribbons, but that officers usually don't wear theirs. There have been many high ranking Air Force officers who have tried for years to simplify the Air Force uniform, but most SNCOs would not support such efforts; much like CAP members I suppose.

That said, I've never seen or heard in the AF the type of discussions I do in CAP about uniforms or awards. Seriously, I like "bling" as much as the next guy, but it's not as big of a deal as many CAP members make it out to be. I didn't joined CAP because of the uniform, the badges, the awards or the grade; I joined because I believe in the mission and get satisfaction when we accomplish it successfully. All this discussions, IMHO, are a distraction.

Eclipse

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:33:30 PM
This is an over simplified list, but I think illustrate that no matter which decision is made, someone will be displeased and complain about it.

Agreed.

So lead and make decisions which spread the pain around, while fulfilling the mission for the most people
and presenting a uniform appearance for the organization, which is supposed to be the purpose of a uniform
to start with.

There are also less "catastrophic" measures which could be taken such as consolidation of the operational uniforms
which would set the tone, and be a step in the right direction while not completely walking away from CAP's USAF roots.

Since camo no longer provides any USAF affinity, it serve zero purpose and is a liability in the field.
Green flight suits are by no means "unique" to the USAF, or even the military for that matter.

Dark blue for all and move on.  Keep the dress uniforms as is (for now).

Simple, and you're 1/2-way to an actual "uniform".  Further, since mission work is when most people
see CAP out in the open, all of a sudden you have an organizational identity.

Done.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Storm Chaser on July 02, 2014, 05:40:40 PM
That said, I've never seen or heard in the AF the type of discussions I do in CAP about uniforms or awards.

And that's because CAP's multi-form is broken, and worse, not properly worn, nor is regulation compliance enforced.

Fix even 1/2 that sentence and most whining goes away.

"That Others May Zoom"

Shuman 14

Quote2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardized; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.

Which is something the new CAPM 39-1 should have addressed.

This shirt [insert model name here] and this trouser [insert model number] are the only authorized combination for the Grey/White Corporate Uniform.

{Would have made Scamguard very happy.  ;) }

Correct me if I'm wrong but CAP members have access to the AAFES?

CAP should have adopted the Army's ASU white shirts as the only authorized shirt for the Grey/White uniform.

Military-grade quality, reasonably priced, and accessible from other suppliers if there is no AAFES near your location.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 04:45:33 AM
And the circle is complete.

So.....what's the solution guys?

You are now the National Commander......make the call......and really deal with the fall out.

If I am ever lucky enough to rise to that level; I would adopt one khaki Corporate Service uniform (which i have described many times in other threads) for all Senior members.

USAF styles would be reserved for Cadets only.

The only exception to this would be the USAF-style Mess (Tuxedo) uniform.

BBDUs and Blue flight suits would become the standard Field and Flight duty uniforms.

Polo's would be authorized but with the khaki trousers for office duties and khaki tactical pants for semi-field duties.

One team, one uniform, one fight.
 
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 04:51:53 AM
I'm sorry guys...but we keep comming back to this.

Nothing has changed....the same three less then optimal choices.

a) Ditch the USAF uniforms
b) Ditch the out of weight and grooming people
c) Keep the status quo.

Sadly, I believe you are correct.   :(
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Alaric

Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:45:35 PM
Quote2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardized; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.

Which is something the new CAPM 39-1 should have addressed.

This shirt [insert model name here] and this trouser [insert model number] are the only authorized combination for the Grey/White Corporate Uniform.

{Would have made Scamguard very happy.  ;) }

Correct me if I'm wrong but CAP members have access to the AAFES?

CAP should have adopted the Army's ASU white shirts as the only authorized shirt for the Grey/White uniform.

Military-grade quality, reasonably priced, and accessible from other suppliers if there is no AAFES near your location.

Yes because its my intention to spend as much money as possible at Vanguard.  Just out of curiosity, shuman, where do you pick up your shirts and trousers?  How do you define reasonably priced? 

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on June 30, 2014, 04:58:21 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2014, 04:45:33 AM
....make the call......and really deal with the fall out.

Which is what the National CC should do, make the call.

Go to the USAF and discuss the height/weight and actually request, formally, that all members be in the same uniform.
Instead of conjecture about what might be refused, or "they told us 'no' over coffee", etc., submit the request and
insure it is formally addressed and responded to.

Depending on their response, then it will either be "all in blue" or "all in gray".  Lots of people will be unhappy, but lots
of people are already unhappy, it's time they at least knew who was making them unhappy.

The process should be 100% open, and done publicly, including all requests and responses from all parties,
this is, after all, a volunteer paramilitary organization which depends on the benevolence of its members for
its existence, not some intelligence hearings about Ukraine.  Nothing about the uniforms should be a "secret".

Then, once CAP has a "uniform", whatever it is, this conversation never have has to occur again.

If the USAF came out publicly and simply said "This situation is out of CAP's hands, we choose to
perpetuate the status quo and there will be no change to a single uniform as long as it is our call...".
then at least everyone would know where the blame lies, and the situation could be addressed
from a different vector (i.e. DOD, Congress, whatever).

Until then, because no one wants to be blamed, or risk being sad or making someone else sad, it
all lies in a dark corner and everyone can privately blame everyone else, while never actually doing anything.

There is, of course, the possibility that the BOG doesn't >want< a single uniform, for whatever reason,
and if that's the case, so be it, that's their call to make, but then they should own it.

Well stated Sir.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

#392
Yes, members have access to AAFES, however for some it seems to be an uphill battle to get things ordered,
and there is no online ordering allowed.

The ASU shirt is not an "aviator" shirt, and it has permanent creases - neither are proper for CAP.

Standardization of color is the least of CAP's uniform issues, and requiring the G/Ws be purchased from
a single source would break the notion that many members can simply go in their closets for most of the parts,
especially pilots.

You'd also have size issues unless you made the single source DXL, or similar, since by design these uniforms
are worn by people of "size".

"That Others May Zoom"

Shuman 14

QuoteThere are those who would assert that officers do not wear their decorations on the blues shirt when worn without a jacket.

Is that regulation or tradition?  ;)

Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
^ Not without conflicting with verbiage elsewhere which does not allow military medals
on corporate uniforms.

I wear my highest dec, though yes, it could be any of the CAP mini medals.

Another silly rule to add to the second class status of the Grey/Whites... no Military decorations and badges.

Never mind that every VSO with a uniform (VFW, AL, MCL, etc.) allows it on their uniforms...

or that many police and fire agencies at Federal, State and local levels allow it...

or that the USAF actually has regulations for the wear of decorations on civilian attire...

Lets make the second class feel even more left out.

Stupid.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

SARDOC

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:43:15 PM
There are also less "catastrophic" measures which could be taken such as consolidation of the operational uniforms
which would set the tone, and be a step in the right direction while not completely walking away from CAP's USAF roots.

Since camo no longer provides any USAF affinity, it serve zero purpose and is a liability in the field.
Green flight suits are by no means "unique" to the USAF, or even the military for that matter.

Dark blue for all and move on.  Keep the dress uniforms as is (for now).

Simple, and you're 1/2-way to an actual "uniform".  Further, since mission work is when most people
see CAP out in the open, all of a sudden you have an organizational identity.

Done.

This is the route I've advocated for a while.  This would have been a great step with the introduction of the new CAPM 39-1.

I was hoping this regulation was going to generate this kind of change...but it seems not much has changed at all, begging the question...why did it take so long if it's primarily just a reformat?

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on July 01, 2014, 10:14:57 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 01, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Chappie,
   you're making the AF tradition that officers do not wear ribbons on thier shirt into a CAP tradition, ignoring that many of us have no other option for wearing ribbons. While you may have been talking about a couple specific activities, your claims about the culture cover a lot more than just a couple of activities.

+1 - That "tradition" has no place in CAP.

Concur.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:17:28 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:10:00 PM
So why don't CAP squadrons create a BDU closet in which you keep various sizes of BDU's and have the cadets sign them out when they need them and return them cleaned after the activity is over.

Many do exactly this - but those uniforms are "free".  Who pays for the initial stock?

Donations from the USAF and Servicemembers get rid of BDUs.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on July 02, 2014, 05:25:51 PM
^ Another reasonable practice not allowed by CAP.

Really?

"Appropriate civilian attire" is not authorized by CAP?
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Shuman 14

Quote from: Alaric on July 02, 2014, 05:56:23 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on July 02, 2014, 05:45:35 PM
Quote2. It's easy to put together since it's largely non-standardized; almost any white shirt and grey trousers will do.

Which is something the new CAPM 39-1 should have addressed.

This shirt [insert model name here] and this trouser [insert model number] are the only authorized combination for the Grey/White Corporate Uniform.

{Would have made Scamguard very happy.  ;) }

Correct me if I'm wrong but CAP members have access to the AAFES?

CAP should have adopted the Army's ASU white shirts as the only authorized shirt for the Grey/White uniform.

Military-grade quality, reasonably priced, and accessible from other suppliers if there is no AAFES near your location.

Yes because its my intention to spend as much money as possible at Vanguard.  Just out of curiosity, shuman, where do you pick up your shirts and trousers?  How do you define reasonably priced?

I buy my uniforms via AAFES, on average an ASU white costs $20.00 USC. I think that is quite reasonable for dress shirt.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present