The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:09:07 AM
But I do have the authority  to make such an order.....and in the right circumstances you would get the 2b and I would get a commendation.

A commendation?  Indeed?

No, I would not get a 2B.  Over something that trivial, I would be gone voluntarily (and probably long before it got to that point).

In fact, I have never personally known anyone facing such an action to stay in CAP.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never known it personally.  The ones I have heard of the member just has quit.

Which is probably a good thing.  Our gears grind enough as it is.

To my knowledge, I have never disobeyed an order in CAP and not about to start.
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lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 04:02:57 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 04:00:40 AMIf so...well, I can choose to find another unit, or to not attend an activity.  However, I will make it known as to why.

And you'd be well within your rights to do that, though things may not be any different there.

In the case of the CAWG Nomex FDU requirement, that was a wing-level mandate of what many consider to be
an "optional" uniform.  You could file complaints, and certainly hold them accountable for proper
supplements, but once the "i's and t's" are covered, it's $185 FDU or you don't fly.

The same goes for their CAL Tran suits.  If you want to be on a GT, apparently you have to have one.

An "optional" uniform mandated by a CC, in this case the Wing CC.
Actually it was a PCR mandate for a while....but other then that.  I agree. 
You are always free to a) Complain up the chain of command.  b)  File an IG complaint.  c)  Go home.

I would also like to point out the term "optional" here as it is sometime missed used.

Patch X is optional according to 39-1.   That means from the members point of view.......unless other levels of command have not said anything about it......you may or may not wear it.....your choice.

Sometimes.....commanders may make an optional item mandatory.......like for instance wing patches on BDUs and BBDUs.
Also sometimes......commanders may make an optional item forbidden to wear on uniforms.....like the beret from NBB.

So....to summarize....commanders do have control over "optional" items.   The only limit to that power is in regards to cadets and the basic guide lines of keeping down costs and not being a butt to the volunteers.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:18:04 AM
...and not being a butt to the volunteers.

Which a truly good commander, in my opinion, would know where to draw the line on anyway.
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lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 04:17:11 AM
To my knowledge, I have never disobeyed an order in CAP and not about to start.
Oh I have.....knowingly, with malice a fore thought.  But that is a discussion for another thread.   >:D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:20:39 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 04:17:11 AM
To my knowledge, I have never disobeyed an order in CAP and not about to start.
Oh I have.....knowingly, with malice a fore thought.  But that is a discussion for another thread.   >:D

Bad, bad boy. >:D
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lordmonar

That's

"Bad!  Bad NCO!" with the required wrist slap.  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 04:22:13 AM
That's

"Bad!  Bad NCO!" with the required wrist slap.  :)

As you say, Master Sergeant.

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lordmonar

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

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Storm Chaser

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:56:18 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:54:43 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

That's certainly within the authority of a commander.

Quote from: CAPR 39-1, Para. 1.2.3.3The CAP/CC and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions.

The MBU is not appropriate in all circumstances. You wouldn't send a ground team to the field wearing service uniform, would you? Commanders can and do prescribe uniforms to meet uniformity and training/mission requirements.

♠SARKID♠

Aside from the proofreading errors, I'm really annoyed with the whole v-neck requirement. In their zeal to align with the USAF, they forgot to account for the fact that all of their open collar dress uniforms can be closed with a tie. The polo doesn't get that treatment. Some of us are of the more grizzly persuasion when it comes to body hair and frankly, you don't want us wearing a polo with a v-neck.

-1 on v-necks
+1 on the black fleece getting tapes
-1 on dropping the NASAR patch
+1 on adding drawings instead of pictures
-10 on overall readability
+10 on adding tactical pants to polo combo

JoeTomasone

It's pretty simple.   You must obtain the MBU to participate in meetings.   You learn pretty quickly that to participate in other, optional activities that they require other uniforms that you must be willing to pay for.  If you aren't willing to pay for that uniform, then you are effectively choosing not to participate in that activity. 

If a Cadet is not willing to get some BDUs - SOMEHOW - by the time they are in desperate need of an Encampment, then perhaps other priorities are at play.  In any event, if I were a commander and had that situation, I'd be making it MY job to find some BDUs somewhere for the cadet.

rmutchler

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:56:18 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:54:43 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

Speaking as a Squadron Commander myself, there are times it is necessary to mandate a UOD.  I had an event where I required G/W, Polo or Blues because of what we were doing.  I actually said in the event announcement:

UOD: Cadets - Blues (Service Coat optional); Seniors - Blues (Service Coat optional), White Aviator Shirt with Grey Slacks/Skirt, or Navy Polo.  If you do not have a CAP uniform please wear nice slacks and shirt.  Any uniform other than the UOD's listed are not authorized for this activity

Luis R. Ramos

Why so much complaints about "buying a non-mandated uniform?"

Next time you render the Federal Income Tax, you can include that uniform cost as part of your deductions! The only members that may not be able to do so are those that belong to the PR Wing, as not all Puerto Ricans pay Federal taxes.

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 29, 2014, 03:01:59 PMNext time you render the Federal Income Tax, you can include that uniform cost as part of your deductions! The only members that may not be able to do so are those that belong to the PR Wing, as not all Puerto Ricans pay Federal taxes.

There are a lot of members, especially younger senior members, who are not able to deduct CAP expenses.

Unless you itemize, and for most people that means owning a home, you can't deduct the expenses because
they fall under the standard deduction.

"That Others May Zoom"

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Storm Chaser on June 29, 2014, 05:06:18 AM
The MBU is not appropriate in all circumstances. You wouldn't send a ground team to the field wearing service uniform, would you? Commanders can and do prescribe uniforms to meet uniformity and training/mission requirements.

For what you are saying - operational requirements - I haven't got a problem with that at all.

What I was getting at would be a (admittedly unlikely) hypothetical situation where a commander only liked the golf shirt/grey slacks combo simply out of personal preference and made that the only uniform allowed for squadron activities.

Or even further out in left field...requiring green NOMEX flight suits for everyone, even if they're not aircrew, because s/he likes the look of it?

Quote from: rmutchler on June 29, 2014, 01:32:44 PM
Speaking as a Squadron Commander myself, there are times it is necessary to mandate a UOD.  I had an event where I required G/W, Polo or Blues because of what we were doing.  I actually said in the event announcement:

UOD: Cadets - Blues (Service Coat optional); Seniors - Blues (Service Coat optional), White Aviator Shirt with Grey Slacks/Skirt, or Navy Polo.  If you do not have a CAP uniform please wear nice slacks and shirt.  Any uniform other than the UOD's listed are not authorized for this activity

And that's not what I was really getting at.  I've been to many, many, many CAP events where the commander has required a given UOD - with variants, as you did.

What I was talking about was a commander requiring one uniform for all squadron members simply because s/he liked it, not for operational reasons, and barring wear of all others.  Again, an admittedly out-of-left-field hypothetical scenario.

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:07:23 PM
There are a lot of members, especially younger senior members, who are not able to deduct CAP expenses.

Unless you itemize, and for most people that means owning a home, you can't deduct the expenses because
they fall under the standard deduction.

Correct, sir.  I don't think I was able to deduct CAP expenses until I got married; while I was single I lived in an apartment.
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Nikos

What was the thinking on getting rid of the brown t shirt?  Also, not sure if I read it right, you can't wear white t shirts in the AF blue dress uniform?

I think it is called a "Ridgeway Hat", not a "Castro Hat".

Slim

Quote from: Nikos on June 29, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
What was the thinking on getting rid of the brown t shirt?  Also, not sure if I read it right, you can't wear white t shirts in the AF blue dress uniform?

The brown t shirts originally authorized for BDUs are no longer available as none of the services are using them.  OTOH, black t shirts are readily available in packs of three for about $10 at your local walmart.

QuoteI think it is called a "Ridgeway Hat", not a "Castro Hat".

Actually, it's called a BDU cap.  If you call it what it is, confusion is eliminated.


Slim

THRAWN

Quote from: Slim on June 29, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
Quote from: Nikos on June 29, 2014, 07:39:05 PM
What was the thinking on getting rid of the brown t shirt?  Also, not sure if I read it right, you can't wear white t shirts in the AF blue dress uniform?

The brown t shirts originally authorized for BDUs are no longer available as none of the services are using them.  OTOH, black t shirts are readily available in packs of three for about $10 at your local walmart.

QuoteI think it is called a "Ridgeway Hat", not a "Castro Hat".

Actually, it's called a BDU cap.  If you call it what it is, confusion is eliminated.

Do you mean like if you call it a patrol cap? That is the proper name for that piece of equipment.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
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abdsp51

I think I am going to add the obsession with the reverse flag to my x-files list.