The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:23:24 PM
But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

I still call Bravo Sierra on that.

The reason being: to get one, I would have to spend MY own money.

A CAP CC does not have authority to tell a member how to spend their money, or what on.

If they're in minimum-compliance with the regs on the uniform (AF blue or G/W kit), I don't think that a CC has the authority to go beyond that.  39-1 establishes minimums, and if you comply with that, I think further orders for a uniform that simply happens to fit a CC's tastes is overreaching.
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SARDOC

For the Ongoing discussion from the new Reg


Quote from: CAPM39-11.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms
described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may
require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a
specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied
without expense to the cadet.

Eclipse

#182
Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:07:33 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:23:24 PM
But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

I still call Bravo Sierra on that.

The reason being: to get one, I would have to spend MY own money.

A CAP CC does not have authority to tell a member how to spend their money, or what on.

If they're in minimum-compliance with the regs on the uniform (AF blue or G/W kit), I don't think that a CC has the authority to go beyond that.  39-1 establishes minimums, and if you comply with that, I think further orders for a uniform that simply happens to fit a CC's tastes is overreaching.

The verbiage in this regard has not changed, and CCs maintain the authority to set a UOD.

1.2.3.3. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various
climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to obtain all or even a major
part of the combinations described in this publication. The CAP/CC and other commanders may specify
the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron,
group, wing, region, and national functions.
All commanders must be mindful of the objective of
attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and
will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements.


Put simply, all members must own either blues or the whites, at their choice per H/W & grooming.
So no member could refuse a UOD of either / or.

Past that, for BDUs flights suits, or even the golf shirt, a CC could set the UOD to whatever he liked,
and restrict participation to those not in compliance.  While the verbiage indicates CCs should be
sensitive to cost, the front of the paragraph spells out a power not reduced elsewhere, so a complaint on that basis
would not be sustainable.

In fact, this authority has already stood the supplement test in CAWG, where, at least for a time, Nomex was required
to fly - a significant cost barrier for anyone.

"That Others May Zoom"

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 02:21:57 AM
Those without the choice are left unable to display their plumage in the same way that those
who can wear the USAF styles do.  In fact, they pretty much can't wear them at all to formal
functions since the blazer doesn't allow it.

So Maj Fat and Fuzzy, who is the backbone of the wing, devotes 40 hours a week to CAP,
as well as being encampment staff and devoting his 2-weeks vacation every year to an NCSA
can't wear a "real" uniform to the banquets or PiRs, while Lt Twice A Year can do so whenever he please.

Or the good major is the commander of an even on a military base, and is forced to
wear the Realtor jacket while his subordinates all wear their brightest service dress.

And before you say "it shouldn't matter", maybe not, but it does, especially to newer guys with no choice,
especially since the rules are both arbitrary, and largely (pun intended) ignored by the very leadership
charged with enforcing them.

Quite well stated, sir.  I was hoping the new 39-1 would address this somehow, but obviously they chose not to.
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The CyBorg is destroyed

If a commander would be that small-minded enough to try and get me to shell out money for an optional uniform that I neither want nor need...I'd be looking for a different squadron.
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lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:07:33 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 10:23:24 PM
But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.

I still call Bravo Sierra on that.

The reason being: to get one, I would have to spend MY own money.

A CAP CC does not have authority to tell a member how to spend their money, or what on.

If they're in minimum-compliance with the regs on the uniform (AF blue or G/W kit), I don't think that a CC has the authority to go beyond that.  39-1 establishes minimums, and if you comply with that, I think further orders for a uniform that simply happens to fit a CC's tastes is overreaching.

"The uniform of the day is BDUs or equivalent"
You show up in Gray and Whites......"Sir you are in the wrong uniform you must go home."
"You can't make me!"
"Sir you are insubordinate, you must go home."
"Make me!"
"Sir here is your 2b"

It is that simple.

You may call BS on it....but is the order "you will wear BDUs or equivalent" illegal?
If it is not....then all subordinate CAP members must follow it.
If you don't....that is insubordination....and a 2B offense.

Again.....I do think it is over stepping for someone (on both sides of the order) to take it that far.   But simply as a theoretical debate on how far does a commander's authority go.........I most certainly can order you to get other uniforms.

And that authority is the same authority that orders you to maintain as a minimum the MBU.   So right there in black and white is a CAP CC ordering you spend your money.

No where....does it say a commander can't order you to wear a specific uniform (unless you are a cadet).   And that caveat for cadets is very telling in and of itself.   It assumes that the commander has the authority to order other uniforms and specifically restricts that authority in relation to cadet.

So......again.....Your interpretation of the regulations IMHO is wrong.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:36:10 AM
If a commander would be that small-minded enough to try and get me to shell out money for an optional uniform that I neither want nor need...I'd be looking for a different squadron.
I agree.

But there is a difference between "not a good idea" and "not allowed".
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

#187
Regs do not require one to own anything beyond the basic uniform.

If UOD is AF or equivalent, it does not mean golf shirt.

If they want me to have a golf shirt, they can bloody well pay for it.

I wear the G/W kit under protest because I cannot wear the AF uniform right now, and I'm not going to be one who flouts regs on that.  Even though I do not like the uniform, I wear it well within regs - clean, kept pressed and proper badging.

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Checotah

I have read much of this post, and a few others, with some interest.  Several people point to the regs, saying this can be done or that can be enforced, when, in reality, it would not necessarily be in the best interest of the program to do that.  We have to remember we are all volunteers, and there is no Code of Military Justice backing up our rules.  Yes, we can insist upon Seniors wearing this uniform or that combination, but, at the end of the day, volunteers can vote with their feet.  If a commander insists upon enforcing a given uniform policy, and his unit does not agree, the practical outcome will likely be that he or she is standing there alone. 

For me, meeting the goals of our primary missions (ES, Cadets, & A/E) should come before the secondary issues such as requiring a specific uniform combination.  Our regulations are specific in particular circumstances, such as working with Cadets or flying on CAP missions, but there is latitude within even those to enable compliance along with some personal choice.  I will always support the unit that is working towards completion of those primary goals over those that advocate, for example, absolute uniformity of dress, or spit shine/starch in their uniforms.  I care less about how a given individual dresses, as long as he/she is compliant with the basic legal aspects, if the target missing aircraft and people on board are located in a timely fashion, and, hopefully saved.

That is not to say that I condone sloppy dress, or disregard of our regs.  I simply place a greater importance to getting the primary job done, within the established overall (National) guidelines, than concentrating upon superficial aspects.  I know there are those who will say that you can have both, but I have doubts about some of that.  Given the choice of having an excellent SAR team, able to execute in a timely and effective fashion the missions handed to us, or having a unit that looks good, but cannot execute, I choose the former.  And for those who say "Do both", I ask, given the two choices, and ONLY those two choices, which do you choose?

Sometimes it comes down to a choice.
Fred Arnett
Lt. Col., CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:41:27 AM
Regs do not require one to own anything beyond the basic uniform.

If UOD is AF or equivalent, it does not mean golf shirt.

If they want me to have a golf shirt, they can bloody well pay for it.
I feel for you.

Here is the other side of that coin.   If you want to come to this training you bloody well better get a golf shirt.

It is that simple.

You are free to quit at any time......and it would be stupid for a commander to push it to that level.
But the commander does have the authority to push it that far.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

#190
Quote from: Checotah on June 29, 2014, 03:42:57 AMGiven the choice of having an excellent SAR team, able to execute in a timely and effective fashion the missions handed to us, or having a unit that looks good, but cannot execute, I choose the former.  And for those who say "Do both", I ask, given the two choices, and ONLY those two choices, which do you choose?

Classic fools choice.

Quote from: Checotah on June 29, 2014, 03:42:57 AM
Sometimes it comes down to a choice.

Further, you perceive choices and options that don't actually exist.

The fact that you are not alone in CAP on this, and that this behavior is tolerated is a significant problem in CAP as a whole.

Proper uniform wear, as directed, is a baseline expectation of membership and participation, and is mutually exclusive from
"mission", nor is the nonsense some spout about "mission first, uniform later".

Instead of mental gymnastics to justify why "you can't tell me what to do" or "I know better" you could simply do what
you're told and save everyone the aggravation and time of the conversation.

Or vote with your feet, which in a lot of cases would be better for all parties involved.

"That Others May Zoom"

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 03:44:26 AM
You are free to quit at any time......and it would be stupid for a commander to push it to that level.

But the commander does have the authority to push it that far.

This is not the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard, and we do not have a UCMJ to enforce such things.  I was in the ANG.  Wing king or lower authority set UOD as (usually) BDU's or blues.  I complied.  Of course, the Air Force/my state paid for most of my uniforms, at least initial BMT issue.

What if a commander tried to say "you need to go out and buy a biography of General Spaatz, and it costs $25, which you will be responsible for?"

If it's requiring a uniform for an activity, I can (barely) see that.  I've never been to an activity where someone got gigged for a uniform violation.  Usually it was a smattering of blues or G/W, BDU's or flight suits (pilots).  In fact, the senior squadron I was in, I never saw most of the pilots in anything BUT a flight suit, with no insignia except the leather nameplate.

But requiring an optional uniform as a constant duty uniform just to be part of the squadron?
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Eclipse

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
This is not the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard, and we do not have a UCMJ to enforce such things.

Seriously?  You know better, that's an irrelevent example, and a lame excuse - CAP has regulations with just as much bite, internally, as the UCMJ, you just get
demoted, removed from authority, suspended, or terminated instead of incarcerated.  They can still enforce things to the logical Armageddon conclusion.

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
What if a commander tried to say "you need to go out and buy a biography of General Spaatz, and it costs $25, which you will be responsible for?"

Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Now I agree and to a point disagree with Eclipse.

Situational Leadership is and always has been my watchword.

I do believe that mission comes first.   But I agree with Eclipse that too often "mission comes first" is abused too much.

And it is up to leadership to keep it in check.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:54:43 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?
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Eclipse

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:56:18 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:54:43 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

Yes.  Asked and answered.  It's no longer "optional" when directed by a CC that it be worn.

"That Others May Zoom"

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:58:04 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:56:18 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 29, 2014, 03:54:43 AM
Irrelevant to this discussion, however CAP commanders direct their subordinates to incur costs all the time.
Manuals, rockets, equipment, aviation charts, etc.   The precedent has long been set.

Including requiring an optional uniform as something one must have to participate when the regs don't say so?

Yes.  Asked and answered.  It's no longer "optional" when directed by a CC that it be worn.

If so...well, I can choose to find another unit, or to not attend an activity.  However, I will make it known as to why.
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Eclipse

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 04:00:40 AMIf so...well, I can choose to find another unit, or to not attend an activity.  However, I will make it known as to why.

And you'd be well within your rights to do that, though things may not be any different there.

In the case of the CAWG Nomex FDU requirement, that was a wing-level mandate of what many consider to be
an "optional" uniform.  You could file complaints, and certainly hold them accountable for proper
supplements, but once the "i's and t's" are covered, it's $185 FDU or you don't fly.

The same goes for their CAL Tran suits.  If you want to be on a GT, apparently you have to have one.

An "optional" uniform mandated by a CC, in this case the Wing CC.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on June 29, 2014, 03:52:54 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 29, 2014, 03:44:26 AM
You are free to quit at any time......and it would be stupid for a commander to push it to that level.

But the commander does have the authority to push it that far.

This is not the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard, and we do not have a UCMJ to enforce such things.  I was in the ANG.  Wing king or lower authority set UOD as (usually) BDU's or blues.  I complied.  Of course, the Air Force/my state paid for most of my uniforms, at least initial BMT issue.

A)  Yep this is not the USAF, RES or ANG....it is CAP.   We got CAPR 35-3 to enforce such things.
B)  Actually you did pay for all your uniforms....the USAF just gave you a clothing allowance for it up front.

QuoteWhat if a commander tried to say "you need to go out and buy a biography of General Spaatz, and it costs $25, which you will be responsible for?"
It is a legal order and if I refused to follow it I could be 2b'ed.

But that the thing.......you are confusing "is it a good idea" with "is it allowed".    If I ordered you to jump up and down on one leg....it is a legal order.  Now if you refused it.....and I tried to 2b you for it.  It would get to the wing king who would toss out the 2b and would have a pointed discussion with me over being an FPOC.  But I do have the authority  to make such an order.....and in the right circumstances you would get the 2b and I would get a commendation.

QuoteIf it's requiring a uniform for an activity, I can (barely) see that.  I've never been to an activity where someone got gigged for a uniform violation.  Usually it was a smattering of blues or G/W, BDU's or flight suits (pilots).  In fact, the senior squadron I was in, I never saw most of the pilots in anything BUT a flight suit, with no insignia except the leather nameplate.

But requiring an optional uniform as a constant duty uniform just to be part of the squadron?
So you have never been in a unit where they have made the order.....cool.  But it still does not mean that the commanders did not have the authority to order you in to an "optional" uniform.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

For the record, I do not advocate overt or covert disobedience to ANY CAP regulations.

If I did, instead of wearing the G/W, I'd just wear my AF Blues and say "to Hades with the H/W requirements."

But if I did that, I couldn't live with myself, and at the end of the day that's the one I have to live with the most.
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