Misdeamnor Drug Possession Conviction

[Cato the Younger]

A few questions for the group to consider.
1. How long after a misdeamnor drug possession conviction before someone is eligible to re join CAP?
2. Is the time frame longer if the drug possession was during a CAP activity?
3. Does it matter if the CAP activity was a Cadet Activity?
4. What if it involves the operation of a vehicle or aircraft?

[Nick]

My humble opinion ... if a drug possession charge occurred at a CAP activity, especially if cadets or assets were present, that should be a permanent disqualifier.

[NC Hokie]

I'll have a go...

1) There's no concrete answer here, as it really depends on the exact nature of the offense and the offenders actions since the offense.  That said, I wouldn't even consider the request until one year after the conviction.

2) The time frame then becomes "not in a million years."

3) Nope; possession at any CAP activity would be a deal breaker.

4) See number 2 if the offender had personal possession or was the sole occupant of said vehicle or aircraft.  See number 1 if that is not the case.

[RiverAux]

Given all 4 of those circumstances, I personally wouldn't sign off on their membership application for probably 20+ years.  This assumes that that they had matured significantly and assuming the drug conviction happened while they were a cadet.  If a senior member got busted under those circumstances I can't imagine ever letting them back in. 

But, there isn't going to be any hard and fast rule on this issue as it is all going to depend on much more information about the situation than you should post here. 

I don't think you're going to find any regulatory guidance that is this specific.

[Johnny Yuma]

Busted for bringing dope to a CAP activity? I'll refrain from mentioning how monumentally stupid a stunt that would have been and how whoever would have done this would have to be about the biggest loser idiot on the face of God's Green planet.

But I won't say that. The Hell I won't!

I'd say the chances are (justifiably) somewhere between "Are you effing serious?" and "Go back to your Bong pipe, stoner boy!"

[Airrace]

If the drug conviction involved a CAP activity then I would have to say never!

[Spike]

Once you are out of CAP (2b) and failed to get an appeal board to let you stay in, it is permanent. 

Drugs are a HUGE no-go in CAP/AF eyes. 

We have a whole program trying to get kids to stay away from drugs and then a member actually has drugs at a CAP activity.

Instead of a misdemeanor I would have been pressing for a felony conviction with the local DA, on the basis that he could have contributed to hooking Cadets on drugs. 

Wow......simple answer.....Drugs are bad, drug users are idiots, and we don't need any of them in CAP.  The day a Meth head, Crack dealer or Pot smoking dude is allowed to come back to CAP, is the day I quit. 

[esilassy]

No way in Heck ever......

[JCJ]

A few questions for the group to consider.
1. How long after a misdeamnor drug possession conviction before someone is eligible to re join CAP?
2. Is the time frame longer if the drug possession was during a CAP activity?
3. Does it matter if the CAP activity was a Cadet Activity?
4. What if it involves the operation of a vehicle or aircraft?

All above answers are great comments.  These are handled on an individual basis, but the farther down your list you go, the worse it gets (and less likley a waiver).

If I were in the CoC for this I would put alot of emphasis on the recommendation of the Squadron Commander.  One other "deal-killer" - failure of complete disclosure.  If the prospective member completely discloses the issues and what has been done to prevent them from happening again, then those who review the application have something to work with.  Something serious discovered on the background check that was not disclosed on the application is usually a "deal-killer".  Sometimes errors of the past, if corrected, can be forgiven (but remembered).  Dishonesty is usually a character trait inconsistent with a "one-time event" issue, and in my opinion closes the door permanently.

[Cato the Younger]

Wow......simple answer.....Drugs are bad, drug users are idiots, and we don't need any of them in CAP.  The day a Meth head, Crack dealer or Pot smoking dude is allowed to come back to CAP, is the day I quit.

A pot smoking dude has been let back in and I have been told he is in a position of authority over cadets.

Please don't quit!

[N Harmon]

1. How long after a misdeamnor drug possession conviction before someone is eligible to re join CAP?

Immediately, unless said conviction is part of pattern of convictions (see CAPR 39-2).

2. Is the time frame longer if the drug possession was during a CAP activity?

No, because it would then be the ensuing CAP membership action (assuming one was taken), and not the misdemeanor conviction that made the member not eligible to rejoin.

3. Does it matter if the CAP activity was a Cadet Activity?
4. What if it involves the operation of a vehicle or aircraft?

Nope.

That said, membership suitability is up to the commander, and he/she can decide a person is unsuitable even if a person is good-to-go regulation-wise. With exception to certain non-discrimination items, prior misdemeanor convictions not being one of them, commanders have a wide latitude in who they accept as members of their units.

If it were me, it would probably come down to what drug was possessed, when, and in what context. A misdemeanor ticket for simple possession with fine paid probably would not bother me too much. A trafficing charge pled down to a misdemeanor with jail time, probably would.

A pot smoking dude has been let back in and I have been told he is in a position of authority over cadets.

Important thing to note is that "pot smoking" is not neccesarily illegal for everyone. Although I have a feeling that for a lot of CAP members, it would be less forgivable than say, abusing prescription drugs.

[Eclipse]

Important thing to note is that "pot smoking" is not neccesarily illegal for everyone. Although I have a feeling that for a lot of CAP members, it would be less forgivable than say, abusing prescription drugs.

Cite please.

Cannabis is illegal anywhere within the United States, and the feds don't make exceptions for medicinal use.

[capchiro]

The original question didn't give an age of the offender, however, the juvenile court system is set up for rehabilitation and juveniles are usually found "delinquent" and not guilty of a crime.  One of the reasons for this is to allow the juvenile to return to society and participate as a productive member.  Also, I don't believe misdemeanor convictions automatically prevent one from joining the real military or holding political office.  I believe the proper response would be to allow the squadron commander to make the decision after satsfying himself as to the details of the crime.  How about remembering the prodigal son parable and lightening up.  Not everyone is mistake free in this life.  This may have been a one time indiscretion and then again it may have been something much bigger, but until the details are known to the commander and he makes his decision, most of this is speculation.  There are those among us who have done worse, have reformed, and serve admirably.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that applicants for cadet membership can be denied because of a lack of moral character and besides the specific prohibitions, senior membership can be denied based on Any other unfavorable information brought to the attention of CAP officials at any level.. 

So, even though a misdeamor isn't an automatic disqualification, if all 4 of those circumstances were involved a commander certainly could fall back upon those clauses even if the member hadn't been terminated for cause at the time of the incident. 

[Flying Pig]

Important thing to note is that "pot smoking" is not neccesarily illegal for everyone. Although I have a feeling that for a lot of CAP members, it would be less forgivable than say, abusing prescription drugs.

Cite please.

Cannabis is illegal anywhere within the United States, and the feds don't make exceptions for medicinal use.

In CA at least it may not be illegal givern your circumstance.  You can get a license and grow it for medicinal. You can get a card and smoke it for medicinal.  The feds stay out of it here if you are following your counties guidelines.  In Fresno County you can grow 25 plants if you are a provider.  I fly over back yards all day long that have some pretty thick forests going on.  In CA, possession of weed under 1 oz in an infraction.

So that would be an interesting scenario?  A CAP member who "legally" uses medicinal marijuana?  If we have not encountered it yet, someone here will.  That may be a worthy discussion I think?  Politics aside, a member, lets say a Senior Member to make it easy, comes in smelling like weed.  You confront them and they slap down their County issued medicinal marijuana card that is recognized and allows them to possess/ toke weed without legal consequence for their asthma condition (Yes, Ive seen it for that)  You call the local cops because now your confused.  The officer hands Capt Weed J. Toker back his card and tells you hes broken no laws.  Now what?  Because I dont know the answer as a CAP member.  Does it end there?  The guy is legal.  Has CAP thought this one through?  Maybe its a Wing issue since it doesnt apply everywhere.

[N Harmon]

Cite please.

Cannabis is illegal anywhere within the United States, and the feds don't make exceptions for medicinal use.

I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that Native Americans are exempt from some federal drug laws by virtue of their religious use.

[Eclipse]

I'll take your word on the Native Americans, however in regards to California, its still a Federal crime, so its still a crime, and since our USAF endorsement is at the Federal level, I'd be willing to bet that's the place where the decision would be made.

Regardless, we're not talking about a convoluted situation with a license, or Native American exemption, or whatever.  We're talking about some ding-dong member who is dumb enough to get busted using or possessing at a CAP activity.

For that my tolerance is zero, find someplace else to spend your free time.

[Hawk200]

.... We're talking about some ding-dong member who is dumb enough to get busted using or possessing at a CAP activity.

For that my tolerance is zero, find someplace else to spend your free time.

Second, wholeheartedly.

[Major Carrales]

.... We're talking about some ding-dong member who is dumb enough to get busted using or possessing at a CAP activity.

For that my tolerance is zero, find someplace else to spend your free time.

Second, wholeheartedly.

If a member is in significant pain to be using Marijuana for medicinal use, then one can argue that they are much too sick to be participating in CAP. 

For that matter, any person on a medicine that might impair their faculties (be they pain killers or other purely medical elixirs) needs to be home and not at a CAP activity. When sick...stay home.

[flyerthom]

Cite please.

Cannabis is illegal anywhere within the United States, and the feds don't make exceptions for medicinal use.

Cite please.

Cannabis is illegal anywhere within the United States, and the feds don't make exceptions for medicinal use.

Several states have medical marijuana laws. An example is Nevada State Health Division Regulations (Pursuant to NRS 453A.710(2))
From NV RNformation .

Nevada Revised Statute 453A

Standards are strict and require  central registration. Patient populations are specified ;

1.  Acquired immune deficiency syndrome;

      2.  Cancer;

      3.  Glaucoma;

      4.  A medical condition or treatment for a medical condition that produces, for a specific patient, one or more of the following:

      (a) Cachexia;

      (b) Persistent muscle spasms, including, without limitation, spasms caused by multiple sclerosis;

      (c) Seizures, including, without limitation, seizures caused by epilepsy;

      (d) Severe nausea; or

      (e) Severe pain; or

      5.  Any other medical condition or treatment for a medical condition that is:

      (a) Classified as a chronic or debilitating medical condition by regulation of the Division; or

      (b) Approved as a chronic or debilitating medical condition pursuant to a petition submitted in accordance with NRS 453A.710.

      (Added to NRS by 2001, 3054)

Chances are someone with these conditions would not be in our volunteer pool due the severity of illness.
I have had patients on dronabinol (Marinol) - which is a synthetic cannabis. To the last they have had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. Those using herbal cannabis are also very ill and very regulated. The program is administered from University of Nevada Reno Medical School and  required approval under 21 U.S.C. § 823 

As I said - anyone under this program is to ill to be a candidate for CAP.
Anyone trying to obtain membership who says they are legal users are - in my opinion - not being upfront. Of course in NV anyone in the program is issued a registration card so it can be verified easily.

[Eclipse]

Which part of Federal crime is hard to comprehend?  Just because a state decides to legalize or decriminalize the use of a controlled substance doesn't mean the DEA won't come knocking on your door.

This, in fact, is part of the issue with states doing this on their own.  People have been busted by the feds and dragged away while waiving their state license, and the Supreme Court supports this action.

A few random Googles on the subject...

http://cannabisnews.com/news/12/thread12066.shtml

http://cbs2.com/local/Marijuana.Dispensary.Raid.2.1126004.html

http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6550&wtm_format=print

[DBlair]

Do we want someone like that flying a plane or driving a vehicle full of other members? Do we want that sort of person dealing with out Cadets? If he/she was a Cadet, do we want that sort of influence on our Cadets?

On a variety of levels, this person goes against so much that we teach our members. I'd say good riddance, and never look back. We don't need that sort of person in our organization. Zero Tolerance.

[Flying Pig]

By no means am I for it.  I think its  a big scam, however, in CA (which is why it might be a Wing issue) I have let many people go and handed them back their baggy of weed and sent them on their way.  So if its legal in CA, that may be our way out.  Sorry Capt. Toker, Fresno County may say you can do it, but the Feds say you cant. 

Perhaps Wings (states) that have medicinal marijuana laws need to put their Wing Legal Officers to work addressing this.  And to say that they will be to sick to participate in CAP?  Sorry, I know of many people who go about their days using weed in this manner.  So you cant write it off by saying "Oh, they'll be to sick."

[RiverAux]

If they've got the conviction (which is what we're talking about), then they broke somebody's law and it doesn't really matter to CAP whether it was state or federal.  So, even if med MJ is legal in California, if some fed comes along and busts you and gets you convicted in federal court, thats all that we need. 

[Spike]

I teach and try to impress upon young men and women (Cadets) that all drugs, are bad.  How am I supposed to that if (in California) the member next to me is high on Pot??

We are supposed to follow Federal Laws first, State Laws second.  You better believe if I come to knowledge of a Drug User in CAP, I will be the first to break out the 2b.

Now.....do I fully believe in the current drug policies.  Not at all.  Do I think that there may be medicinal uses for some illegal drugs.....absolutely.  HOWEVER, until the Federal Government (FDA) says that the use of certain drugs are now purely medicinal, and decriminalizes them, I will support the current policies. 

If a policy or Law is stupid, it will fail on it's own.  I don't need to push it over the cliff.   

[Major Carrales]

And to say that they will be to sick to participate in CAP?  Sorry, I know of many people who go about their days using weed in this manner.  So you cant write it off by saying "Oh, they'll be to sick."

Sorry, I cannot support that issue.  If one is under the influence of a substance, legal or not, then they are impaired.  We don't let people fly with ear infections or drive when under impaired conditions, including disease, the side-effect of medicine, loss of glasses, cell phone and a myriad of other things , so why should it be any different for people using medicinal canabis?

The logic is not logical.  They are in too much pain to exist without relief (be it morphine or Marijuana), so they self-medicate to effect their pain...yet they can show up to CAP activities that might require driving and alertness. 

It like the insurance fraud victim that is too "ill" to show up for work due to a disability of ones back, yet they work on their farms, automobile hobby and other more strenuous activities.  Every hear about what they do to those...it not a pat on the hand.

Oh...and one last thing.  Alcohol is legal for consumption...yet if a person shows up smashed to a CAP activity I think it is safe to say a 2b is in order.  Under the influence, be it for medical or personal resources is an impairment.  It is a case of the wrong time/place versus the correct set.

[afgeo4]

By no means am I for it.  I think its  a big scam, however, in CA (which is why it might be a Wing issue) I have let many people go and handed them back their baggy of weed and sent them on their way.  So if its legal in CA, that may be our way out.  Sorry Capt. Toker, Fresno County may say you can do it, but the Feds say you cant. 

Perhaps Wings (states) that have medicinal marijuana laws need to put their Wing Legal Officers to work addressing this.  And to say that they will be to sick to participate in CAP?  Sorry, I know of many people who go about their days using weed in this manner.  So you cant write it off by saying "Oh, they'll be to sick."

Mr Flying Pig,

Legal jurisdiction is not the same as law enforcement jurisdiction. Federal law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law. States can legalize whatever they want, but the use of Marijuana is still illegal in this country. You can push county/state rights all you want, but there's such a thing called U.S. Constitution.

[PHall]

By no means am I for it.  I think its  a big scam, however, in CA (which is why it might be a Wing issue) I have let many people go and handed them back their baggy of weed and sent them on their way.  So if its legal in CA, that may be our way out.  Sorry Capt. Toker, Fresno County may say you can do it, but the Feds say you cant. 

Perhaps Wings (states) that have medicinal marijuana laws need to put their Wing Legal Officers to work addressing this.  And to say that they will be to sick to participate in CAP?  Sorry, I know of many people who go about their days using weed in this manner.  So you cant write it off by saying "Oh, they'll be to sick."

Mr Flying Pig,

Legal jurisdiction is not the same as law enforcement jurisdiction. Federal law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law. States can legalize whatever they want, but the use of Marijuana is still illegal in this country. You can push county/state rights all you want, but there's such a thing called U.S. Constitution.

He's not ignoring the Federal Law, he's doing what the DA and the Judge tells him to do.

[cap235629]

Legal jurisdiction is not the same as law enforcement jurisdiction. Federal law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law. States can legalize whatever they want, but the use of Marijuana is still illegal in this country. You can push county/state rights all you want, but there's such a thing called U.S. Constitution.

You had better read that Constitution again.  Specifically the 10th Amendment.  NOWHERE in the Constitution does it say Federal Law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law.  It is actually the contrary.

[Ned]

Legal jurisdiction is not the same as law enforcement jurisdiction.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

In a given case, a court/government either has jurisdiction (the power to try a case) or not.

I've never heard of a difference between "legal" and "law enforcement" jurisdiction.

Federal law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law.

Usually, but not always.  Remember, Federal jurisdiction is only proper where permitted by the Consititution.  Which is why 99% of what we normally consider "criminal law" is exclusively a state concern. 

Normally there has to be some sort of Federal "connection" for the feds to have the ability to legislate in the area.  It's usually something that affects multiple states (like kdnapping across state lines or unlawful flight to avoid prosecution across state lines).

Until the Supreme Court clarified the matter in a 6-3 decision (Gonzales v. Raich (2005) 545 US 1), there was substantial disagreement as to whether something as purely local as simple possession and use of locally grown marijuana could ever be sunject to Federal jurisdiction.  A divided Court held that it was a proper exercise of the Commerce clause to regulate marijuana, even for medical purposes.

Many scholars believe that it was a bit of stretch to extend the Commerce Clause to cover locally grown marijuana that had never entered interstate commerce.

Indeed, as Justice Thomas wrote:

If the majority is to be taken seriously, the Federal Government may now regulate quilting bees, clothes drives, and potluck suppers throughout the 50 States. This makes a mockery of Madison's assurance to the people of New York that the "powers delegated" to the Federal Government are "few and defined", while those of the States are "numerous and indefinite."

In any event, it is now clear that the Feds can regulate medical marijuana.

But no US Attorney is prosecuting simple possession cases.  They only prosecute growers and trafficers.

It is also worth remembering that our DDR program gnerally does not discourage medicinal use of drugs recommended by physicians.

And not every use of a pain or nausea relieving drug makes the user unable to effectively perform work or operate heavy machinery.

Have you ever driven after taking aspirin?

Back to the OP, misd convictions do not disqualify anyone from CAP membership.  That's what the regulations say, and all of us follow the regulations, don't we?

However, any actions taken by the prospective member - whether illegal or not, prosecuted or not - may be reviewed by the membership committee as part of the normal processing of every application.  Then the committee will make any recommendations they feel appropriate, and the unit commander will make the decision based on the facts and circumstances.

Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer

[SJFedor]

By no means am I for it.  I think its  a big scam, however, in CA (which is why it might be a Wing issue) I have let many people go and handed them back their baggy of weed and sent them on their way.  So if its legal in CA, that may be our way out.  Sorry Capt. Toker, Fresno County may say you can do it, but the Feds say you cant. 

Perhaps Wings (states) that have medicinal marijuana laws need to put their Wing Legal Officers to work addressing this.  And to say that they will be to sick to participate in CAP?  Sorry, I know of many people who go about their days using weed in this manner.  So you cant write it off by saying "Oh, they'll be to sick."

Mr Flying Pig,

Legal jurisdiction is not the same as law enforcement jurisdiction. Federal law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law. States can legalize whatever they want, but the use of Marijuana is still illegal in this country. You can push county/state rights all you want, but there's such a thing called U.S. Constitution.

I doubt he requires a reminder of those definitions. He is, after all, a rather experienced law enforcement officer.

[Cecil DP]

Legal jurisdiction is not the same as law enforcement jurisdiction. Federal law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law. States can legalize whatever they want, but the use of Marijuana is still illegal in this country. You can push county/state rights all you want, but there's such a thing called U.S. Constitution.

You had better read that Constitution again.  Specifically the 10th Amendment.  NOWHERE in the Constitution does it say Federal Law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law.  It is actually the contrary.

To paraphrase the 10th Amendment. Any rights(powers) not reserved in the Constitution for the federal government devolve to the states.

[N Harmon]

You had better read that Constitution again.  Specifically the 10th Amendment.  NOWHERE in the Constitution does it say Federal Law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law.  It is actually the contrary.

And you may want to read it again as well. Pay particular attention to article 6, paragraph 2, otherwise known as the supremacy clause. Because it actually does say that.

[Flying Pig]

Legal Jurisdiction and Law Enforcement Jurisdiction?  I guess I missed that day at the academy. 

You guys are taking this all wrong.  The use of medicinal marijuana in CA is not illegal. The feds are not prosecuting users.  They only prosecute traffickers and growers who are going overboard.
If your within the guidelines, your solid. (unfortunately) Believe me, Ive done my share of fighting the war on drugs.
Ive been on a task force and have been with DEA agents when we have gone to houses with allegations.  The people let us count their plants, we looked at their paperwork, and we left.  Its not turning a blind eye to it as some suggested.  I dont have the ability to walk around and enforce the law as I see fit.  We have directives from DA's out here regarding whats accepted and what isnt.
And no, the DEA guy didnt slap the cuffs on anyone.  Unlike Hollywood, the Feds dont just walk in and flash their badges and take over a scene. If you dont think use of weed in CA for medical purposes isnt legal, please feel free to come out here and talk to the various District Attorney's.  When I said Ive handed people back their baggy of weed and sent them on their way, that wasnt me making some protest, there was no legal grounds for an arrest. So he gets his stuff back.

During CAMP season, Ive located many grows. Only to find out later they were carded.  Have a nice day and walk away.  The DEA isn't standing in line to prosecute any of them because its a local issue. 

The discussion I was interested in wasnt people coming on and tapping out what they thought the cops should do.  You can be arrested for PC647f Public Intoxication if you are stoned and out in public.  However, to be arrested you need to show you cant take care of yourself.   You also cannot drive within 8 hrs of using medicinal marijuana.   So as a scenario, again, lets say we have a seasoned member who has been around a while who decides he needs it.  He gets a card and hes living the dream.  Do we 2b him/her out?  Trust me, like all of you, Ive met some nut jobs in CAP who I would put this above.  I think it would be a prudent idea for CAP to make up a directive.  If your in a Wing that doesnt recognize weed as a medicine your lucky.  But if you are, it could someday be an issue.

[Eclipse]

The lack of will of a DA to prosecute a crime, for whatever reason, does not make that behavior "legal".

With that said, I wouldn't begin to argue your knowledge over local politics and law enforcement over mine, nor forget to offer you sympathy over an untenable position.

[Cato the Younger]

So I just found out there is more to the story. Here is what I have been told. Consider this now:

A senior member is a staff member at a cadet activity. The senior member brings marijuana and it is not for medical use, strictly recreational. The senior member is caught by police authorities with the use of a K-9 and issued a citation.

Senior member is a relative of the wing commander. The wing commander immediately accepts the resignation of the senior member so the wing commander does not have to terminate the senior member's membership. This way the senior member can rejoin CAP again after everything blows over and the wing commander can claim that all this happened when the senior member was not a member since the conviction technically happen after the resignation. Now the senior member is back in CAP as a squadron commander.

[Flying Pig]

OUCH.  Thats ugly.  If he is in as a Sq. Commander, I would assume he has been back in for a while or did he immediately step in as CC?

[EMT-83]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

You have facts presented to you second, or third, or fourth-hand. If there is someone with reliable information who chooses to initiate an IG investigation, fine. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Hawk200]

So I just found out there is more to the story. Here is what I have been told. Consider this now:

A senior member is a staff member at a cadet activity. The senior member brings marijuana and it is not for medical use, strictly recreational. The senior member is caught by police authorities with the use of a K-9 and issued a citation.

Senior member is a relative of the wing commander. The wing commander immediately accepts the resignation of the senior member so the wing commander does not have to terminate the senior member's membership. This way the senior member can rejoin CAP again after everything blows over and the wing commander can claim that all this happened when the senior member was not a member since the conviction technically happen after the resignation. Now the senior member is back in CAP as a squadron commander.

Sounds like both Wing CC, and the member need to get canned. One committed a crime on our time, the other covered it up.

I know there are cases where people got wrongly railroaded, but this doesn't appear to be one of them. (Key word being appear)

[Cato the Younger]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Otherwise, what's the point?

The purpose of the thread is to engage in a discussion of a topic of interest. I looked through the regulations and could find no fault with the situation. However, this just seems to run contrary to the intent of the regulations, policies and purpose of our programs. I believe it exposes a loop hole in the regualtions and a laspe of judgement of people in leadership.

[Eclipse]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread.

You have facts presented to you second, or third, or fourth-hand. If there is someone with reliable information who chooses to initiate an IG investigation, fine. Otherwise, what's the point?

Ditto.  Over the last month or two we've seen new posters wandering in with situations that are far too specific, detailed, or full of caveats to be addressed coherently in a forum like this.

Stuff happens, people make bad choices, and others try to smooth things over or cover them up, etc.  This happens in families, business, the military, and yes, CAP.

In some of these cases there might be cause for an IG to be involved, assuming someone actually files a complaint, but in most of them its 2nd/3rd-hand information, and its seems as if the only reason for posting is some bizarre catharsis of making the allegations publicly, without the need to actually sign your name on a complaint and stand by your concerns.

The other phenomena is a poster who slowly escalates the details and makes the situation worse and worse until even the most restrained readers are forced to respond.

How we react to these situations, and act when we are in positions of authority or leadership are all we can control. If that's the only lesson CAP imparts to members, especially our cadets, we've been successful.

[STG3, USN]

The Military has the zero tolerance policy one offense and your out no questions asked, oh yeah and your barred from ever reenlisting into any component of the Armed Forces again. I imagine CAP would be the same way.

[Gunner C]

After reading the post above, there should be a line in the personnel regulation that prohibits members from resigning in lieu of an investigation that could lead to termination or perhaps other types of disciplinary actions.

[Spike]

^ Even the military sometimes allows "resignation for good of the service".  If a person quits, that does not mean the Powers that be in CAP, can not flag him or her in the system as to prevent their return.   

[AlphaSigOU]

^ Even the military sometimes allows "resignation for good of the service".  If a person quits, that does not mean the Powers that be in CAP, can not flag him or her in the system as to prevent their return.

For officers, it's sometimes referred to: RILO (Resign [your commission] In Lieu Of [a court-martial]). In CAP it could be easily adapted; instead of 'commission' it's 'membership' and court-martial changes to 'termination'. Such a choice would have an adverse action flag placed in the membership database.

[Eclipse]

I would swear I read somewhere that members being investigated by an IG could not resign voluntarily until the investigation was closed.

As to flagging a membership, there's nothing stopping a Unit CC from writing a memorandum for the member's personnel records and forwarding a copy to Wing.  It may get lost/ignored/etc., but at least there's something to record why the person left.

[cap235629]

You had better read that Constitution again.  Specifically the 10th Amendment.  NOWHERE in the Constitution does it say Federal Law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law.  It is actually the contrary.

And you may want to read it again as well. Pay particular attention to article 6, paragraph 2, otherwise known as the supremacy clause. Because it actually does say that.

I agree with respect to those powers granted the federal government as enumerated in the Constitution

[a2capt]

...and more California antics:
http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_8a03cd17-f9df-5834-9796-2bf586792e79.html

I do have to say that should I be on a membership review committee at the time that a potential member for review shows up that reeks of pot ...

I think the whole thing is a mockery of the law.

But- it's legal under state statute, and .. with that, it's not really any different than beer and booze. If you are operating under the influence, you face the music. Can't say I've ever had anyone show up at a CAP meeting stinking of beer.

But just the drug conviction is really enough to sway me, as it's been pointed out, we have a whole program related to keeping the kids motivated enough to keep the lure of drugs away from them.

[Eclipse]

But- it's legal under state statute, and .. with that, it's not really any different than beer and booze. If you are operating under the influence, you face the music. Can't say I've ever had anyone show up at a CAP meeting stinking of beer.

A statute which conflicts with a higher authority, and which the state does not have the power to relax, any more than they could license treason.

Over 21 alcohol is a legal substance to consume, so then we're left with CAP behavior regulations or actions caused by the intoxication, however in most cases, the intoxication itself is not illegal, its doing it in public, driving under the influence or with an open container, etc.

Mere possession of alcoholic beverages isn't illegal, nor could you terminate a CAP member for having a 6-pack in his trunk.  Not so with Cannabis.

[Major Carrales]

You had better read that Constitution again.  Specifically the 10th Amendment.  NOWHERE in the Constitution does it say Federal Law ALWAYS supersedes state and/or local law.  It is actually the contrary.

And you may want to read it again as well. Pay particular attention to article 6, paragraph 2, otherwise known as the supremacy clause. Because it actually does say that.

I agree with respect to those powers granted the federal government as enumerated in the Constitution

Smoking pot is "enumerated in the Constitution?"  Really...

Let's not start cutting up the US Constitution for disingenuous or agendistic reasons. Honestly, this sort of bending of the Constitution is likely more disrespectful to its Framer's Intent than not following it at all.

[Gunner C]

Can't say I've ever had anyone show up at a CAP meeting stinking of beer.

I have - I was a brand new squadron CC.  One of the parents came to me telling me that the DCC smelled of alcohol, not just that week, but every week.  I held a staff meeting, telling the SMs that doing anything with the cadets smelling of alcohol would be grounds for termination.  I never saw that SM again.  The person was not only running a cadet program drunk, but was driving on Pope AFB smelling of booze in a CAP uniform.  Bad for the SM and bad for CAP is they were caught.

It was the only time I've ever seen anyone who had been drinking before a unit meeting (at least the only one I've ever caught).  I know that there were several who imbibed in after-meeting meetings.

[CAPSGT]

I've come across the drunk prospective senior member situation before.  The decision of the rather ad-hoc membership committee was going to be to deny the application, but he never showed up again, so it never got to that point anyways.

[Spike]

There are a few Wing Conferences where there is a hospitality room for Senior Members too drink and socialize.  Some Seniors walk out in front of Cadets toasted.  For that, the Wing Commander needs Fired. 

[Gunner C]

^^^^^
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

As a former region chief of staff, I've seen more than a couple of hospitality rooms and seen members stagger out (not all, but some). I don't drink, so after talking to a few folks, I usually excuse myself and go see what the cadets are doing.  They usually are out in the hallway somewhere just socializing, rolling their eyes at the occasional SM who staggers by.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you are on meds legitimately prescribed by an M.D., D.O., Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner (let me know if I've left any out), first of all, it needs to be on your Form 60.  CYA.

Second of all, going by the limited information the original poster provided, I would say to tell him/her to try and see how far s/he gets.

Bear in mind, though, when filling out your membership application, you must be nothing less than completely honest about everything, because failure to do so, if found out, is grounds for showing you the door right there.

I don't know if what CAP does is a full National Agency Check, but if it is, and there's a conviction on file, my guess is that it will very probably come up, not to mention if there are any adverse actions on file at National.

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a police officer, just a CAP member putting in my $.02, and part of that (putting on former DDRO hat) is that anyone with a drug conviction, no matter for what, has no business being around a CAP activity, period.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^^^^
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

As a former region chief of staff, I've seen more than a couple of hospitality rooms and seen members stagger out (not all, but some). I don't drink, so after talking to a few folks, I usually excuse myself and go see what the cadets are doing.  They usually are out in the hallway somewhere just socializing, rolling their eyes at the occasional SM who staggers by.

Kind of my POV.  I don't drink either, knocked that off 10+ years ago, but if others want to legally do so, and within the bounds of CAP regulation, I'm not going to say anything.

However, I really don't think that cadets should have to see SM's staggering from "drink taken."  I believe it undermines the authority of an SM of whatever rank, not to mention setting a very poor example.

[Spike]

If you are on meds legitimately prescribed by an M.D., D.O., Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner (let me know if I've left any out), first of all, it needs to be on your Form 60.  CYA.

It does?  Can you point me toward the regulation that says I have to disclose my Viagra?

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a police officer, just a CAP member putting in my $.02, and part of that (putting on former DDRO hat) is that anyone with a drug conviction, no matter for what, has no business being around a CAP activity, period.

Wow.....so the lady that took an allergy pill and was charged with "driving under the influence" by the courts when she fell asleep and wrecked her car should not be in CAP??

Yes the lady made a mistake, but it was unintentional.  She did not smoke crack and then wreck her car. 

I think she would deserve a clean slate.  Don't you?? 

[SarDragon]

If you are on meds legitimately prescribed by an M.D., D.O., Physician's Assistant or Nurse Practitioner (let me know if I've left any out), first of all, it needs to be on your Form 60.  CYA.

It does?  Can you point me toward the regulation that says I have to disclose my Viagra?

You're very foolish not to. If you ever have a heart problem that results in an ER trip, it will be VERY beneficial for your doctor to know that you take it. It doesn't mix well at all with nitrates.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^What SARDragon said.^

The Form 60 is for your benefit.  We have a family friend whose sister's allergy to sulfa killed her, because the doctor did not know of the allergy.  If you have to be seen by a doctor, believe me, the doc is going to want to have as much information to hand as s/he can, and that includes your meds.  I thoroughly doubt the doc is going to care about your Viagra, except in a clinical sense.

On the original topic:

If you are indeed talking about someone taking allergy meds and charged/convicted of DWI, that is a different kettle of fish to someone arrested, charged, and convicted of possession of an illegal substance covered under the Controlled Substances Act, as I see it.  My niece's high school expelled a girl for giving a friend a Midol for monthly cramps, which I think is a bit over-the-top.

But I'm not in charge of making the rules for CAP.

If these meds were prescription, the doc/pharmacist would have been required to include warnings on the script bottle warning of side effects.  OTC meds have to carry a similar warning.

But again, the person is not going to know how CAP regards the conviction unless they go through the process.

[Major Lord]

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

Understood, sir, and I had just forgotten about the dental side.  A former co-worker of mine's DDS prescribed him Vicodin until he could get him in to work on a badly abscessed tooth.

[Spike]

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

The FED will arrest anyone they want in Post Offices, Federal Buildings and any other Federal Government property or building.  They do that, because no matter what states say you can or can't do, Federal Laws trump State law.  I watched 60 minutes last year where they were arresting drug abusers with "legitimate" prescriptions for pot in a Post Office.  They sent them a letter telling them they had their marijuana shipment in and busted them when they came in for it.

It is still a federal crime to mail pot in California, so watch out folks!

[PHall]

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

The FED will arrest anyone they want in Post Offices, Federal Buildings and any other Federal Government property or building.  They do that, because no matter what states say you can or can't do, Federal Laws trump State law.  I watched 60 minutes last year where they were arresting drug abusers with "legitimate" prescriptions for pot in a Post Office.  They sent them a letter telling them they had their marijuana shipment in and busted them when they came in for it.

It is still a federal crime to mail pot in California, so watch out folks!

That's why you ship it via FedEx!

[Cecil DP]

Y

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

The FED will arrest anyone they want in Post Offices, Federal Buildings and any other Federal Government property or building.  They do that, because no matter what states say you can or can't do, Federal Laws trump State law.  I watched 60 minutes last year where they were arresting drug abusers with "legitimate" prescriptions for pot in a Post Office.  They sent them a letter telling them they had their marijuana shipment in and busted them when they came in for it.

It is still a federal crime to mail pot in California, so watch out folks!

That's why you ship it via FedEx!

If it crosses a state line with FedEx or any other carrier you're still vin violation.

[PHall]

Y

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

The FED will arrest anyone they want in Post Offices, Federal Buildings and any other Federal Government property or building.  They do that, because no matter what states say you can or can't do, Federal Laws trump State law.  I watched 60 minutes last year where they were arresting drug abusers with "legitimate" prescriptions for pot in a Post Office.  They sent them a letter telling them they had their marijuana shipment in and busted them when they came in for it.

It is still a federal crime to mail pot in California, so watch out folks!

That's why you ship it via FedEx!

If it crosses a state line with FedEx or any other carrier you're still vin violation.

Yeah, but you don't see DEA agents riding in FedEx vans waiting for someone to sign for their package.

[Spike]

^ YET! 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Y

I would love to see a CAP member try to convince the SP's on Travis AFB that their "prescription"  Marijuana, (no doubt issued by a podiatrist for refractory foot fungus) protects them from arrest on a Federal Reservation. How about the specter of SM's taking bong hits at a Wing Conference in front of Cadets?

FYI, Cyborg, a DDS can prescribe controlled substances too.

Major Lord

The FED will arrest anyone they want in Post Offices, Federal Buildings and any other Federal Government property or building.  They do that, because no matter what states say you can or can't do, Federal Laws trump State law.  I watched 60 minutes last year where they were arresting drug abusers with "legitimate" prescriptions for pot in a Post Office.  They sent them a letter telling them they had their marijuana shipment in and busted them when they came in for it.

It is still a federal crime to mail pot in California, so watch out folks!

That's why you ship it via FedEx!

If it crosses a state line with FedEx or any other carrier you're still vin violation.

Soooo...does that mean that if you send a baggie of you-know-what from one point to another in the same state you're off the hook? :angel:

[Johnny Yuma]

So I just found out there is more to the story. Here is what I have been told. Consider this now:

A senior member is a staff member at a cadet activity. The senior member brings marijuana and it is not for medical use, strictly recreational. The senior member is caught by police authorities with the use of a K-9 and issued a citation.

Senior member is a relative of the wing commander. The wing commander immediately accepts the resignation of the senior member so the wing commander does not have to terminate the senior member's membership. This way the senior member can rejoin CAP again after everything blows over and the wing commander can claim that all this happened when the senior member was not a member since the conviction technically happen after the resignation. Now the senior member is back in CAP as a squadron commander.

I think I heard about this. Dayton, OH area sticks in my head for some reason. IIRC there was an activity at a local college and they were using the dorms for housing. Senior got busted by the campus cops after someone smelled burning weed. This was like, 4 years ago.

I can't see how this could be shielded from the background check when the person rejoined. It's still going to show an arrest whether there was a conviction or not and NHQ will still have automated records showing that person was a member at the time of the arrest.

A very perfunctory IG investigation would show when the person was a member, when/where the arrest was, any activities the person was attending at the time and any action taken by the Wing King at the time. A good IG could have the information he/she needed in a weekend.

[Cobra1597]

I'm going to disagree on this "too ill for CAP" business. Glaucoma? Granted, they won't be flying planes, but they could man a radio in ES or be a Chaplain. I knew a paraplegic who made it threw Earhart in the cadet program, and went on to be a senior member. Sure, they never drove a CAP van, but that didn't stop him from doing a LOT in CAP.

Cancer? I've known of wing commanders struggling with cancer. Very ill from it. Still wing commanders.

Hell, I kept attending CAP in a wheelchair after I broke my hip when I was a cadet. The fact is, you can do a hell of a lot in CAP despite being "ill."

So all of that said, being medically treated for many of those things is a possibility. I'm not sure I'd be willing to approve of a member there using marijuana to treat it, especially if the legality is questionable (and here is when you make a call to your wing legal officer, that's what they are there for). If the legality is not a question, if it was legal, I'd want strict controls put on the use, like keeping it under lock and key.

Frankly, I sometimes wish that would happen more with prescription drugs being taken at CAP. Some of these are really serious controlled substances.

[MIKE]

I knew a paraplegic who made it threw Earhart in the cadet program, and went on to be a senior member. Sure, they never drove a CAP van, but that didn't stop him from doing a LOT in CAP.

Paraplegic is not the right word to describe it IMO.  Paraplegic is what happens after a bad PLF while skydiving with NIN.

[Cobra1597]

I knew a paraplegic who made it threw Earhart in the cadet program, and went on to be a senior member. Sure, they never drove a CAP van, but that didn't stop him from doing a LOT in CAP.

Paraplegic is not the right word to describe it IMO.  Paraplegic is what happens after a bad PLF while skydiving with NIN.

My apologies, but my point still stands. Looking at that list of illnesses that can marijuana can be prescribed for, it hardly seems to me to be a list of "too ill for CAP."

[Major Lord]

Marijuana cannot be "prescribed" for any reason by any health care practitioner in America. California medical practitioners of various sorts "recommend"  medical marijuana use, and there is no binding on or off label use. In other words, a podiatrist might choose to issue the California Medical Marijuana card to a patient for a nasty case of athletes foot. Marijuana is not used to treat disease, only to treat symptoms.  The alleged medical benefits of marijuana for glaucoma have been peer reviewed and found to be nearly non-existent, and nowhere near as effective as actual medicine. ( Although the benefits to the companies that make Doritos, Pepsi, macrame, and lava lamps have their own views on this) As an anti-emetic, and as relatively benign mood elevator, it might have some value, but not on CAP time. That is unless we trade in our 12 pax vans for a fleet of VW buses!

Major Lord

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^What the Major said.

There are some states that have passed medical marijuana laws, but, as the Major said, they are in conflict with Federal law.  All a doctor can prescribe legally that I know of is the prescription drug Marinol, which the DEA classes as Schedule III.

Enforcement is kind of spotty, but every now and then I'll read about a medical marijuana outlet getting busted by Federal, State and/or local authorities being basically a front for a head shop.

Major, back in the '70s, my parents had a blue Lava Lite.  About 10 years ago a guy I knew actually had one of those VW micro-busses.  The thing spewed out more black smoke than a foundry.

Also, you could add retailers who sell Pink Floyd and Grateful Dead albums to your list.

In any case, if there was a conviction, it's very likely National will notice it and, given that the Air Force has a zero-tolerance illegal drug policy, CAP will be very unlikely to let someone in who has such a conviction.