Longest TIG

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was a C/Capt from March 2007 until August 2010. Gotta be a record of sorts.

Of course any 16 year old Spaatz cadet can time out with 4+  years. An eternity in cadet years.

[Eclipse]

If you are in the program with no interest in PD, then you should probably be a cadet sponsor, not a full member.

That'd be fine if all they needed was someone to drive cadets to the occasional SAREX.

If you're doing more then that, you should be involved in the PD that provides the training and skills to be doing it.

[Storm Chaser]

You think that Congress or anyone else who read our numbers don't know that?

There is 1.3 million people in the US armed forces.....no one thinks that is 1.3 million fighters......they know that some of those numbers are empty shirts of one type or another.

That's not a good comparison at all. In the Armed Forces, most military personnel are available for duty, unless on some type of medical leave or something along those lines. In CAP, we have members who pay their annual dues year after year, but do not participate at all.

[lordmonar]

You think that Congress or anyone else who read our numbers don't know that?

There is 1.3 million people in the US armed forces.....no one thinks that is 1.3 million fighters......they know that some of those numbers are empty shirts of one type or another.

That's not a good comparison at all. In the Armed Forces, most military personnel are available for duty, unless on some type of medical leave or something along those lines. In CAP, we have members who pay their annual dues year after year, but do not participate at all.

My comparison is not in their availability....but in how congress thinks about those numbers.

1.3M members in uniform is NOT 1.3 M soldiers.   They know that there are maybe 100 support person for every gun toter.

In comparison to CAP  Congress or anyone else who matters know that a 50K member volunteer organization is going to have a significant number of people who are on the books but no one ever sees.   This is true for the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, soccer teams, school PTA, Red Cross et al.

[Eclipse]

1.3M members in uniform is NOT 1.3 M soldiers.   They know that there are maybe 100 support person for every gun toter.

So?  They are paying for those supporters and someone thinks they are necessary.  Not the same thing.

We're not talking about CAP having a roomful of hard-chargers with nothing to do but ready for the call, we're talking about
rosters full of "members" who are that in name only and are never seen or heard from beyond cashing their check.

In comparison to CAP  Congress or anyone else who matters know that a 50K member volunteer organization is going to have a significant number of people who are on the books but no one ever sees.   This is true for the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, soccer teams, school PTA, Red Cross et al.

Do they, really?  Are you confident enough to trot out the real numbers and see how the chips fall?
Part of the insinuation in reporting those numbers is that a ready force exists for a time of national
crisis, yet even in those times CAP is hard-pressed to get reasonable number to respond, and even
more hard-pressed to ask them to go (i.e. Katrina, Sandy).

CAP supposedly has 60k members, yet most wing rosters look more like Spirograph then a org chart,
many have 1/3rd to 1/2 of the positions vacant or being done as lip-service only, and everything is on a shoe-string
and last minute / brute force, with a healthy does of NIH at NHQ.

Would you be confident enough in your belief that "Congress knows" to start telling them next budget year
about the real numbers and state of CAP today?

And if you're going to compare, then compare like organizations in both scale, scope and mission.
The BSA doesn't get $25M+ a year and the largest private fleet of Cessnas in the world, nor do they have
a theoretical role in the national response framework (nor does the PTA).

[lordmonar]

We don't get that money and those air planes because we got xx number of people.

We got that money and those air planes because that is what it take to do the mission that congress and the USAF has given us.

We get some money based on the number of cadets served....but we don't get any more or less money for having 30K Senior members......vice having only 20K senior members (that is assuming we have a 30% empty shirt rate).

[Eclipse]

We get some money based on the number of cadets served...

Really?  OK, great.

It's the same or worse on the cadet side, so time to start giving it back.
I would hazard on the cadet side we've got at least a 50% empty shire rate, and part of that is an annual churn of
35-40% based om numbers our esteemed poster NIN ran recently.

[lordmonar]

We get some money based on the number of cadets served...

Really?  OK, great.

It's the same or worse on the cadet side, so time to start giving it back.

Why?  Now you are complaining about empyt shirt cadets?   Are there really that many cadets who pay their dues every year and just never show up? 

Sure we get a bunch who join up and then drop out sometime during the year and don't re-up.  Sure we got a some cadets who are in college or something and maintain their membership...but are not active.   

But again....CAP-USAF knows all this.  No need to give back any money.

[Eclipse]

Why?  Now you are complaining about empyt shirt cadets?   Are there really that many cadets who pay their dues every year and just never show up? 

Yes, there really are, and those number come into play in everything from the viability of a charter
to the planing and viability of large activities like encampments and NCSAs.  You have wings showing
a couple thousand cadets and then your larger activities wind up needing cadets from other wings just to
keep the doors open.

Again, it's baseline information and fundamental to the ability of any organization to succeed or even sustain.

You have to know who your members are and whether they can be counted on to show up.

CAP is not a social organization, a rec center, or an "affiliation" - it's a service organization,
and you're either there or you aren't.

[lordmonar]

So the problem is not congress but our own internal planning?

[Eclipse]

So the problem is not congress but our own internal planning?

No one said the problem was "Congress".  It's what we report to Congress, and market to everyone else,
not to mention what CAP fools itself with internally.

An organization with a legitimate 60K members has a significantly higher capability and reach
then one with 20K.  Not to mention higher expectations.

The same goes for a unit with 100 members vs. 20.  The former should be firing on all cylinders
and in most wings leading the way in terms of performance.  Yet we have an untold number of
unit with 60-100 on the roster which find it difficult to keep the doors open, yet no one makes an issue of it,
or for that matter seems to even take notice, then CAP wonders why it's struggling and the trend lines
of membership, mission, and capabilities are all negative.

[vorteks]

If you are in the program with no interest in PD, then you should probably be a cadet sponsor, not a full member.

That'd be fine if all they needed was someone to drive cadets to the occasional SAREX.

If you're doing more then that, you should be involved in the PD that provides the training and skills to be doing it.

That's true, and I've completed Level 1 and taken the relevant online technician-level tests. But I'll probably never get to 1st Lt let alone those grades that require spending money dressing up for and traveling to conferences. That appears to be true for many of the seniors I know. There's a lot of things that should be going on (like, for example, having a competent PDO), and then there are the realities of a volunteer organization. Point is we have value. We do what we can to support the cadet program and I think it's appreciated. So it looks like I'll be 2d Lt until the unit no longer needs my modest contributions, or until my cadet finishes the program. I expect that to be several years.

[Eclipse]

No one said you didn't have value.

1st Lt. Require Level II which does not require any conferences, or anything else that explicitly costs money.

You need SLS, which is usually done multiple times each year in each wing, and can be attended as a day-player
within reasonable driving distance (or completed online with Wing CC approval), OBC, another online test,
and a Tech rating, easily accomplished during the normal course of participation.

All can be accomplished with nothing more the required aviator whites you presumably already have or
the golf shirt uniform.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Part of the reason I left the times that I did was, for me, a matter of integrity.

I was not going to continue to be associated with an organisation that I, at the time, had got disgusted/angry/disillusioned with but just not show up.

When I make a break with someone/something, it's a clean one.  Every time I left CAP, I submitted a letter of resignation to my CC's.

[Private Investigator]

Captain 1997-2000, 2004-2007, 2009-infinity.

So, 5 years TIG.

I know my math skills are somewhere at the Sesame Street level but I would count:
1997-2000 - 3 years
2004-2007 - 3 years
2009-present - 5 years

11 years total, though not consecutive.

If you are out for more than 2 years, your TIG resets to zero.

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return.  These promotions simply can't be submitted in e-services, but must be submitted on a CAPF 2.  Proof of total TIG must be provided on a duty performance promotion.  This promotion was approved by 4 Levels above squadron (group, wing, region and national).  CAPR 35-5 does not state that TIG must be contiguous.  This is not the first duty performance promotion I have processed with split TIG either, just the highest we have ever processed.  The individual has been a LtCol for about 4 months now.

CAPR 35-5 does say that former grade reinstatement is not automatic after a 2 year break.  Perhaps that's what your referring to.

When I was Group Commander I would have disapproved it. I disapproved several. Somebody who has been out of CAP for ten years is way out of touch with what is going on today. JMHO   

[Private Investigator]

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return. 

Why would you submit someone for promotion who was gone for ten years and didn't even qualify for the grade when they left?

Situation is everything.  After three months returning he became squadron CC.  He accomplished a lot since his return and got current on CAP policies and programs.  Understanding he had 3 years TIG when he left, and was already Level IV (granted the requirements have changed slightly).  This gentleman is the rare self starter.  It was well deserved.

So he had 2.5 or 3 years when he left?  The example you gave to fit the narrative is now changing.  He was gone for 10 with only 2.5 as a major, and got promoted to
Lt Col.  Now he's got more then 3 years, was appointed as unit CC and got current on policies.  hardly the same thing.

No the narrative isn't changing.  We requested promotion after he had been back with 2.5 addition years TIG since his return.  He was out for 10 years but had been a member for 10 years before he left.  He was already Level IV complete, with 3 previous years TIG.  And that's what I was saying in my OP, you can add former TIG (even with a longer than 2 year absence) to current TIG to promote someone.  Whether they're deserving is individual case basis, and changes with situation and the person.

The way I call it; is if he is back and participating for 2 1/2 years, he needs another 1 1/2 years for Lt Col. If he is all that it should not be a problem. 

[catrulz]

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return. 

Why would you submit someone for promotion who was gone for ten years and didn't even qualify for the grade when they left?

Situation is everything.  After three months returning he became squadron CC.  He accomplished a lot since his return and got current on CAP policies and programs.  Understanding he had 3 years TIG when he left, and was already Level IV (granted the requirements have changed slightly).  This gentleman is the rare self starter.  It was well deserved.

So he had 2.5 or 3 years when he left?  The example you gave to fit the narrative is now changing.  He was gone for 10 with only 2.5 as a major, and got promoted to
Lt Col.  Now he's got more then 3 years, was appointed as unit CC and got current on policies.  hardly the same thing.

No the narrative isn't changing.  We requested promotion after he had been back with 2.5 addition years TIG since his return.  He was out for 10 years but had been a member for 10 years before he left.  He was already Level IV complete, with 3 previous years TIG.  And that's what I was saying in my OP, you can add former TIG (even with a longer than 2 year absence) to current TIG to promote someone.  Whether they're deserving is individual case basis, and changes with situation and the person.

The way I call it; is if he is back and participating for 2 1/2 years, he needs another 1 1/2 years for Lt Col. If he is all that it should not be a problem. 

I know people that made LtCol in 6 years because of position jump promotions (Squadron CC, then Group CC, very possible when you consider you can be a Major Group CC as Level I complete, and It only takes 3-4 years to get to Level IV completion).  As a higher level commander, you can certainly deny any promotion for pretty much any reason.  This guy was deserving, Group Commander knew it, and Wing knew it.  He didn't even know he was recommended until Region called to set up the Prom Board interview.  He certainly didn't ask for it.   So by all means do what you need to do in Group I, but we need to take care of valuable people.

[Storm Chaser]

Captain 1997-2000, 2004-2007, 2009-infinity.

So, 5 years TIG.

I know my math skills are somewhere at the Sesame Street level but I would count:
1997-2000 - 3 years
2004-2007 - 3 years
2009-present - 5 years

11 years total, though not consecutive.

If you are out for more than 2 years, your TIG resets to zero.

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return.  These promotions simply can't be submitted in e-services, but must be submitted on a CAPF 2.  Proof of total TIG must be provided on a duty performance promotion.  This promotion was approved by 4 Levels above squadron (group, wing, region and national).  CAPR 35-5 does not state that TIG must be contiguous.  This is not the first duty performance promotion I have processed with split TIG either, just the highest we have ever processed.  The individual has been a LtCol for about 4 months now.

CAPR 35-5 does say that former grade reinstatement is not automatic after a 2 year break.  Perhaps that's what your referring to.

When I was Group Commander I would have disapproved it. I disapproved several. Somebody who has been out of CAP for ten years is way out of touch with what is going on today. JMHO   

I disagree. He's had 2 1/2 years to get back "in touch" with CAP; plenty of time for someone who is very active to the point of being a squadron commander. That's why you have promotion boards and several layers (depending on grade) of approval authority. Good commanders should not be making blanket decisions without evaluating all the information and particular circumstances surrounding the decision to be made, including consideration for promotions.

[AirDX]

Another interesting CAPTalk thread hijacked by the same two or three people to argue the same points over and over again...

[Ned]

Hmmm.  I've received exactly 4 promotions in the last 40 years. 

Arguably that makes my average TIG about 10 years.

Sounds about right.