Longest TIG

[Flying Pig]

^ This - the problem with all the empty shirts is they skew all the statistics.

That is offensive. I have a cadet in the program and I joined because the squadron needs help. But I have neither the time nor much inclination (not to mention the means) to persue PD. Does that make me an "empty shirt"? The non-member cadet parents don't seem to think so. And neither does the CC, irrespective of the statistics.

Ehhhh.... I was a 1Lt for 10 years or so... never did PD beyond the minimums.  Never attended SLS or the UCC, only promoted to Captain because of being a SqCC for a year and ended up with Region and Wing Squadron of Distinction awards, two brand new G1000 182s and flew boat loads of CD missions.  I was far more of an asset to CAP than most people I know who have stacks of PD certificates to their name.   If the member provides a service to his particular unit he's not an empty shirt.  If I was still a member... I still probably wouldn't have done any PD.  However that is not to assume I do not know how CAP operates.  I was happy in CAP, I was a SqCC because I was approached quietly and asked to take over the unit and I agreed as long as 1 particular member agreed to be my Deputy for Seniors.  I was that classic example of a guy who knew how to pick the right people and then sat back and reaped the rewards.  And I made sure not to forget them when the time came.  If people are happy and don't create any drama, let them do the minimum.  If my attempts at motivation fail, so be it.  Again.... we all join for different reasons.  Im not at all concerned about skewed numbers on some CAP web site.

[Eclipse]

Someone performing at your level is hardly an empty shirt, nor even a CSM who helps out regularly.

Context is everything, but these days it's more important to be offended then understand the conversation.

[catrulz]

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return. 

Why would you submit someone for promotion who was gone for ten years and didn't even qualify for the grade when they left?

Situation is everything.  After three months returning he became squadron CC.  He accomplished a lot since his return and got current on CAP policies and programs.  Understanding he had 3 years TIG when he left, and was already Level IV (granted the requirements have changed slightly).  This gentleman is the rare self starter.  It was well deserved.

[Flying Pig]

Right.... cuz Im a guy who gets offended.  My point is, nobody cares that a guy shows up, does the minimum and goes home.  More to the point, nobody and no agency cares about any of the "empty shirts" who continue to fund CAP.

[Eclipse]

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return. 

Why would you submit someone for promotion who was gone for ten years and didn't even qualify for the grade when they left?

Situation is everything.  After three months returning he became squadron CC.  He accomplished a lot since his return and got current on CAP policies and programs.  Understanding he had 3 years TIG when he left, and was already Level IV (granted the requirements have changed slightly).  This gentleman is the rare self starter.  It was well deserved.

So he had 2.5 or 3 years when he left?  The example you gave to fit the narrative is now changing.  He was gone for 10 with only 2.5 as a major, and got promoted to
Lt Col.  Now he's got more then 3 years, was appointed as unit CC and got current on policies.  hardly the same thing.

[Flying Pig]

I had several members in my Sq whom I never met.  They did not cause me one single moment of extra work.  My father was a prime example.  He left CAP as a Captain and continued to pay his dues for years afterwards.  His intent was that someday he would re-join.  Again..... doesn't harm CAP in the slightest nor is there any agency or entity being deceived because of these people continuing to pay.

[Eclipse]

Right.... cuz Im a guy who gets offended.  My point is, nobody cares that a guy shows up, does the minimum and goes home.  More to the point, nobody and no agency cares about any of the "empty shirts" who continue to fund CAP.

Wasn't referring to you.

[Eclipse]

I had several members in my Sq whom I never met.  They did not cause me one single moment of extra work.  My father was a prime example.  He left CAP as a Captain and continued to pay his dues for years afterwards.  His intent was that someday he would re-join.  Again..... doesn't harm CAP in the slightest nor is there any agency or entity being deceived because of these people continuing to pay.

Um...Congress?

Empty shirts are reported regularly as "active members" - that's for starters.
Then there's the whole issue of charters without enough members to even stay open and wings
shuffling the empty shirts around just to keep those charters on the books.

Plenty more where that came from.

[catrulz]

This is not true, TIG does not reset to zero if your out for more than 2 years (it resets to zero for the E-services modules).  We just successfully promoted a major to LtCol that had a 10 year break, with only 2.5 as major since his return. 

Why would you submit someone for promotion who was gone for ten years and didn't even qualify for the grade when they left?

Situation is everything.  After three months returning he became squadron CC.  He accomplished a lot since his return and got current on CAP policies and programs.  Understanding he had 3 years TIG when he left, and was already Level IV (granted the requirements have changed slightly).  This gentleman is the rare self starter.  It was well deserved.

So he had 2.5 or 3 years when he left?  The example you gave to fit the narrative is now changing.  He was gone for 10 with only 2.5 as a major, and got promoted to
Lt Col.  Now he's got more then 3 years, was appointed as unit CC and got current on policies.  hardly the same thing.

No the narrative isn't changing.  We requested promotion after he had been back with 2.5 addition years TIG since his return.  He was out for 10 years but had been a member for 10 years before he left.  He was already Level IV complete, with 3 previous years TIG.  And that's what I was saying in my OP, you can add former TIG (even with a longer than 2 year absence) to current TIG to promote someone.  Whether they're deserving is individual case basis, and changes with situation and the person.

[Eclipse]

OK. I totally read that wrong.  I see what you're saying.

[Flying Pig]

I had several members in my Sq whom I never met.  They did not cause me one single moment of extra work.  My father was a prime example.  He left CAP as a Captain and continued to pay his dues for years afterwards.  His intent was that someday he would re-join.  Again..... doesn't harm CAP in the slightest nor is there any agency or entity being deceived because of these people continuing to pay.

Um...Congress?

Empty shirts are reported regularly as "active members" - that's for starters.
Then there's the whole issue of charters without enough members to even stay open and wings
shuffling the empty shirts around just to keep those charters on the books.

Plenty more where that came from.

Again, nobody cares.  Are there squadrons people actually call on that are nothing more than a name and a website?  No.  None of these people make one ounce of difference to congress or CAP operations.  I know you'd love a huge crackdown on people who pay but never show, but it doesn't matter.  it really doesn't.  Its no different than active members who cant be found any time other than required meetings.  They arent showing up to anything either.

[Eclipse]

I know you'd love a huge crackdown on people who pay but never show, but it doesn't matter.  it really doesn't.  Its no different than active members who cant be found any time other than required meetings.  They arent showing up to anything either.

So "integrity" that's off now?

Quoting CAPP 50-2

Integrity
Integrity is the cornerstone of the core values. It is the quality of being honest, sincere, and
morally upright; and without it, the other core values cannot prevail. Integrity requires
discipline, consistency and persistence in order to reflect the core values in everyday life. In
practice, it involves doing the right thing, understanding and implementing not just the
rules and regulations but the spirit of what they stand for.

Former Air Force Chief of Staff, General Charles A. Gabriel said, "Integrity is the
fundamental premise of service in a free society.
Without integrity, the moral pillars of our military strength – public trust and self-respect
– are lost."

Right now you have an organization that literally doesn't even know how many members it
actually has reporting readiness and strength in regards to an operational mission that
purports to be a life and property resource, but that doesn't matter?

The entirety of every other conversation stems from the baseline of knowing who and how many
people you have as members - whether its growth / attrition projections, readiness,
training levels, PD levels, whatever.  All are meaningless without integrity in the data.

The idea that membership numbers "don't matter" is probably the simplest way to distill what is wrong with CAP.

[Storm Chaser]

You guys crack me up. As I read this thread, it's obvious that there's some misunderstanding going on here.

Eclipse' "empty shirt" reference was not directed to members who choose not to complete certain PD requirements or participate in certain activities or promote beyond a certain grade. Eclipse was referring to "active" members who pay their dues, but do not participate or contribute in any significant way to the organization. This presents CAP as being 58,500 members strong, when in reality this number is much, much smaller.

While we may disagree with some of his comments (or even the tone he uses at times), there was nothing offensive about this particular statement.

[Eclipse]

^ Exactly, thank you!

[lordmonar]

You think that Congress or anyone else who read our numbers don't know that?

There is 1.3 million people in the US armed forces.....no one thinks that is 1.3 million fighters......they know that some of those numbers are empty shirts of one type or another.

[James Shaw]

GAWG Wing member Ben Stone (CGM Recipient)
Joined January 1, 1942
Promoted to Lt Colonel April  1950
Promoted to Colonel September 2007
57 Years TIG
He served 68 years straight until his death in 2009


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[Eclipse]

You think that Congress or anyone else who read our numbers don't know that?

There is 1.3 million people in the US armed forces.....no one thinks that is 1.3 million fighters......they know that some of those numbers are empty shirts of one type or another.

Not the same thing, even a little.
Not being a "fighter" doesn't mean you're simply "unaccounted for".  With the exception of situations involving fraud, if you're on
the rolls, there's a reason for it beyond "dunno, guy's been on the roster 10 years, never met him, whatever...".

And you also don't have to be a "fighter", to use your term, in CAP to be a valuable resource, but you do have to show up on occasion
(whether actually or virtually).

[lordmonar]

You think that Congress or anyone else who read our numbers don't know that?

There is 1.3 million people in the US armed forces.....no one thinks that is 1.3 million fighters......they know that some of those numbers are empty shirts of one type or another.

Not the same thing, even a little.

It is exactly the same thing. The people who are concerned with our numbers...know what those numbers mean.  No one is tricked into thinking we have 50,000 pilots out there or that we have 50,000 ground team members.  They know that some of those 50K are pilots, some are CP types, some are admin, comm, cadet parents, and also they know that some of them are just guys who send in checks and never show up.   

[Eclipse]

You think that Congress or anyone else who read our numbers don't know that?

There is 1.3 million people in the US armed forces.....no one thinks that is 1.3 million fighters......they know that some of those numbers are empty shirts of one type or another.

Not the same thing, even a little.

It is exactly the same thing. The people who are concerned with our numbers...know what those numbers mean.  No one is tricked into thinking we have 50,000 pilots out there or that we have 50,000 ground team members.  They know that some of those 50K are pilots, some are CP types, some are admin, comm, cadet parents, and also they know that some of them are just guys who send in checks and never show up.

Sorry, no way.  If you think so, cite where CAP breaks out actual vs. Patron and other non-involved persons.

They don't even report the correct number, let alone how many are active.

Not saying everyone is a pilot isn't >NOT< the same thing as reporting 60,000 members when you know the real number is
significantly less on paper, and of those on paper, maybe a third ever show up.  There are units all over the country that
have 60-10 members on paper and can't get 10 people to a meeting.  In some wings, 000 is (or was until recently) the largest charter.
I think the last time I split out the 000 units it accounted for something like 10+ percent of the total membership,
and that's just in people you can point to easily as "non-factor".

Anything reported to Congress or externally uses the broad numbers in an attempt to make CAP look like a much larger
resource then it actually is on the ground.

[vorteks]

If you are in the program with no interest in PD, then you should probably be a cadet sponsor, not a full member.

That'd be fine if all they needed was someone to drive cadets to the occasional SAREX.

While we may disagree with some of his comments (or even the tone he uses at times), there was nothing offensive about this particular statement.

I'll be the judge of that.