Mandating ES participation in order to promote

[RiverAux]

Somehow I failed to notice the creeping trend in CAP that requires those interested in advancing beyond the Technician level to participate in ES programs.  This has popped up most recently in the PAO specialty track which requires an unprecedented new number of in-residence non-CAP training courses in order to get up to Master level.  However, it is also present in other specialties (Chaplains need to become Mission Chaplains, Comm officers need to become Mission Radio operator, etc.). 

Now, I'm a major fan of ES and it is the only reason I joined the program in the first place.  However, I just don't see the need to force people into it that are really interested in other aspects of our program. 

I'm guessing that this is part of CAP's apparent efforts to make it more difficult to get promoted. 

You know, I really can get behind increasing the requirements to do various ES jobs as you really are dealing with people's lives -- both of CAP members and those we're trying to help.  But, I just don't see the reason to link ES participation to promotion in our current system.

Perhaps I should take heart that CAP is finally moving towards something that I proposed a long time ago -- making CAP rank be based on ES training.  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1425.msg20552#msg20552  I think if they were doing it the way I proposed it, I would be happier, but not sure I like their approach.

[SARDOC]

I know for the Public Affairs Officer, that the idea is that the Public Affairs officer with the experience they get from media relations, incorporated with an ES environment should be a Public Information Officer.  The process is similar when conducting Press Releases and Public Service Announcements.  This is a great experience blend.

I recently had a  SAREX involving multiple wings and the incident PIO was another Wing's Public Affairs person.  I was very happy to see that in his role as the Exercise PIO, he issued a real press release (IC Approved) to local media outlets.  Two media outlets showed up at base ops with camera's for the public interest story.  It's very nice to see when that kind of thing works.

The ES requirement for the Safety Officer specialty tracks have required training as a Mission Safety Officer as far back as I can remember.

[JeffDG]

The ES requirement for the Safety Officer specialty tracks have required training as a Mission Safety Officer as far back as I can remember.

Same with Comm...the MRO/CUL requirement has been there for some time for Senior/Master levels.

[lordmonar]

Nothing wrong with not being interested with the other CAP missions.

But really......if you want to claim to be a MASTER Level of XYZ specialty.....should you not at least have some experience with all aspects of that specialty as it applies to all of CAP's missions?

We had this discussion on the PAO thread.

[Eclipse]

But really......if you want to claim to be a MASTER Level of XYZ specialty.....should you not at least have some experience with all aspects of that specialty as it applies to all of CAP's missions?

Agreed.

CAP's mission is comprehensive and far reaching. It's dying a heat death because members are allowed to specialize and treat that
mission like a menu, limiting participation, skewing manpower assessments, and generally just letting people do "whatever".

This is a small step in the right direction.

[ZigZag911]

Agreed, this is a good idea...too many of our people are over-specialized.

Now, the next thing I'd like to see is a requirement for involvement in the cadet program -- beyond orientation flights -- for the various Operations related specialties, as well.

Let's balance things out across the board, at least with "master" rated members.

[RiverAux]

Does the Air Force make pilots learn how to analyze signals intelligence? 

Folks, there is a vast difference between having people be "familiar" with all aspects of the CAP program and requiring them to become actively involved in all areas of the program to promote. 

Do we also want everyone to become a Chaplain so as to understand what those Chaplains that augment the AF are doing?  Thats a legit CAP mission. 

Does the full-time teacher who just loves AEO need to be kept at a low rank because he doesn't have any interest in doing ES activities? 

Sure, upper ranking CAP members should know about the various things that CAP does, but that doesn't mean that they need to know the nuts and bolts of which forms need to be filled out to carry out their duties. 

I assume that anyone in favor of linking CAP ES experience to professional development is also in favor of eliminating all advanced promotions for former military officers.  After all, in most cases they know nothing about either the CAP specialty or the related CAP ES qualification.  If we expect people in off the street to know these things before being promoted, then everyone should follow that rule.
 

[Eclipse]

Sure, upper ranking CAP members should know about the various things that CAP does, but that doesn't mean that they need to know the nuts and bolts of which forms need to be filled out to carry out their duties. 

Yes, it actually does, and the fact that we have members with eagles who have never held a command position in CAP
before their ascension is one of the core problems in CAP.

I assume that anyone in favor of linking CAP ES experience to professional development is also in favor of eliminating all advanced promotions for former military officers.

Yep, said as much before, but further, all advanced promotion for EVERYONE>

Do something relevent to CAP, in CAP, get promoted.

Also, Chaplain augmentation is a function, not a mission.

[RiverAux]

Also, Chaplain augmentation is a function, not a mission.

Well, you're partially right.  It is a function of one of our missions -- to provide noncombat support to the AF. 

Sure, upper ranking CAP members should know about the various things that CAP does, but that doesn't mean that they need to know the nuts and bolts of which forms need to be filled out to carry out their duties. 

Yes, it actually does, and the fact that we have members with eagles who have never held a command position in CAP
before their ascension is one of the core problems in CAP.

Keep in mind that this ES requirement is not at all equal across all PD.  You can progress through several tracks that have no ES equivalency at all, while others have a lot.  How is it right to require this extra work in an area that the member may or may not be interested in pursuing for some members, but not others?  Should we develop a mission historian ES specialty that requires a 2-3 week internship at the national archives before someone can become a senior level historian? 

[lordmonar]

Does the Air Force make pilots learn how to analyze signals intelligence?

No....but they do make them learn every mission that their aircraft is capable of doing....even if they only do one of them at their current squadron.  No one is asking a Legal Officer to learn how to do logistics, or to be a cadet test proctor.    But if their is some Cadet Programs aspect of their job....then they should know it if they consider themselves to be MASTER level Legal Officers.

Folks, there is a vast difference between having people be "familiar" with all aspects of the CAP program and requiring them to become actively involved in all areas of the program to promote.

Now you have to define "actively" involved....vs "familiar".   Asking a Chaplain to get his Mission Chaplain rating is not asking him to get "actively" involved....he does the training does his two sorties/missions and he's got his ticket punched.

Do we also want everyone to become a Chaplain so as to understand what those Chaplains that augment the AF are doing?  Thats a legit CAP mission. 

Does the full-time teacher who just loves AEO need to be kept at a low rank because he doesn't have any interest in doing ES activities?

If AE has some aspect to ES....then yes...he should know the ES portion of his job.   If not then no.    The AEO should have some knowledge of the cadet, the senior and the external AE program.

Sure, upper ranking CAP members should know about the various things that CAP does, but that doesn't mean that they need to know the nuts and bolts of which forms need to be filled out to carry out their duties.

If they are master rated in the specialty...they most certainly need to know the nuts and bolts of which forms they need to do their duties.

I assume that anyone in favor of linking CAP ES experience to professional development is also in favor of eliminating all advanced promotions for former military officers.  After all, in most cases they know nothing about either the CAP specialty or the related CAP ES qualification.  If we expect people in off the street to know these things before being promoted, then everyone should follow that rule.

I'm in favor of making people with advanced promotions get the PD training for their rank in a reasonable amount of time.
We don't expect people "off the street" to know all this stuff.   We expect them to learn it.  We expect them to lean all of it....as the move up the PD ladder.

[Eclipse]

Making extremes won't help the argument.

The ES requirements are natural extensions of the real-world duties of the staff jobs these specialties require.
If you want the job, that's the duty.  Don't want it, chose something else.

Seriously, anyone joining CAP who isn't interested in either cadets or ES is wasting their time and CAP's.

That's what CAP is about.  Anything else is ancillary support of those very functions.  The rest is not
enough of a percentage of the normal course to be in issue or an influence.

The tangential to this is the assumption anyone >needs< to move up the ladder if they aren't interested in
the total CAP.  Field grade officers should be CAP leaders, not seat fillers or specialists.  Not interested?
no problem, we still need your help, and not being a Major won't impede your ability one iota.

Want those oaks?  Then you need to understand CAP as a whole, not a piece.

[LSThiker]

Do we also want everyone to become a Chaplain so as to understand what those Chaplains that augment the AF are doing?  Thats a legit CAP mission. 

Does the full-time teacher who just loves AEO need to be kept at a low rank because he doesn't have any interest in doing ES activities? 

I think you are crossing the streams.  For one there is no such thing as a Mission AEO, thus a master AE rating would not require an ES specialty rating.  The same is true for say Historian.  No mission historian position exists.  These people should, of course, be familiar with ES.  However, for logistics, there is a mission logistics officer.  Thus, a master level LG should know the mission logistics officer position.  The same is true for Chaplains, PAOs, communications, etc. 

[Eclipse]

Excellent point.

[SARDOC]

Do we also want everyone to become a Chaplain so as to understand what those Chaplains that augment the AF are doing?  Thats a legit CAP mission. 

Does the full-time teacher who just loves AEO need to be kept at a low rank because he doesn't have any interest in doing ES activities? 

I think you are crossing the streams.  For one there is no such thing as a Mission AEO, thus a master AE rating would not require an ES specialty rating.  The same is true for say Historian.  No mission historian position exists.  These people should, of course, be familiar with ES.  However, for logistics, there is a mission logistics officer.  Thus, a master level LG should know the mission logistics officer position.  The same is true for Chaplains, PAOs, communications, etc.

Well, it depends on how down in the details that you get.  A historian may be good for a Documentation Unit Leader especially when it comes to having to use a Post Incident Archive.  Keeping records is important to Historians as well.

That's the closest thing to an analogy I could get.  I always think that AE or Historian, everyone should at least me able to serve as a Mission Staff Assistant.  Watching History in the making sometimes...or seeing the benefit of Citizens getting a Good Aerospace Education with the Practical Applications of SAR.  Some really technically oriented AEO might actually see the benefit of the Imagery that we provide during DR missions. (I know it's a stretch, but I'm trying)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again, this strikes me as the mindset too many members of our organisation have: all ES, all the time.

I must be one of the .00000000000001% who did not join for ES.  I joined because I was interested in AE and providing a safe place for young people (something I did not have).

However, try doing AE to a flying club senior squadron who, if it does not relate to the nuts and bolts of "their" plane, completely tune you out.

Is CAP moving toward an all, or nearly all, organisation of Pilots, Observers, Scanners and Ground Team members, with the other speciality tracks just "secondary?"

[arajca]

I think (yea, bad habit) they're trying to get folks to fill the rest of the incident positions. When I got my LSC initially, I was the only non-IC LSC in the wing. All the others got it because ICs were given it by default as IC, even they never trained or were qualified for it.

Comm has always had an ES requirement as ES has been a major user of Comm.

I don't see it as the All-ES-All-the-Time folks trying to influence the rest, but if you're going to claim mastery in a particular track and there is a one or more of CAP's missions where you are clueless about the functions that are directly related to your track, have you truly mastered the track?

Is there an ES function directly related to AE? I don't see one. Are there sme that are tangently related to AE? Sure. Is ES required for the Master AEO rating? No.

[Storm Chaser]

Does the Air Force make pilots learn how to analyze signals intelligence? 

No, but they do make PAOs learn how to be PIOs. Chaplains also learn how to operate in a mission environment. The same goes for staff safety officers, plans officers, logistics officers, finance officers, etc. Every staff officer/NCO/airman is trained to operate in a mission environment and in support of operational missions. So, this is not really a valid argument.

[Storm Chaser]

Making extremes won't help the argument.

The ES requirements are natural extensions of the real-world duties of the staff jobs these specialties require.
If you want the job, that's the duty.  Don't want it, chose something else.

Seriously, anyone joining CAP who isn't interested in either cadets or ES is wasting their time and CAP's.

That's what CAP is about.  Anything else is ancillary support of those very functions.  The rest is not
enough of a percentage of the normal course to be in issue or an influence.

The tangential to this is the assumption anyone >needs< to move up the ladder if they aren't interested in
the total CAP.  Field grade officers should be CAP leaders, not seat fillers or specialists.  Not interested?
no problem, we still need your help, and not being a Major won't impede your ability one iota.

Want those oaks?  Then you need to understand CAP as a whole, not a piece.

Excellent points. Agree 100%.

[Storm Chaser]

Again, this strikes me as the mindset too many members of our organisation have: all ES, all the time.

I must be one of the .00000000000001% who did not join for ES.  I joined because I was interested in AE and providing a safe place for young people (something I did not have).

However, try doing AE to a flying club senior squadron who, if it does not relate to the nuts and bolts of "their" plane, completely tune you out.

Is CAP moving toward an all, or nearly all, organisation of Pilots, Observers, Scanners and Ground Team members, with the other speciality tracks just "secondary?"

With all due respect, no one is suggesting that it has to be "all ES, all the time". But there are certain staff positions that overlap with our operational mission and it has been determined by CAP that, in order for these officers to be more rounded and effective at the higher levels, they must complete training in these operational specialties.

Someone like yourself, who joined CAP because of the Cadet Programs and Aerospace Education, shouldn't be affected by this as there's no overlap of these functions with our operational mission other than, perhaps, cadet participation in ES.

[MIKE]

So in those wings where CAP essentially has no ES role, because the ELT search mission is dying and other functions are covered by the state... Nobody rises above Captain because CP and AE is the mission and ES is a pointless time sink?