Getting rid of the AF service uniform

[Rotorhead]

What do you "do" in CAP that causes you to look like an 8th grader in your opinion?

I have appeared on television and at public events in both the BBDUs and white/grey without looking like that.

Ever stand in a military formation on a military dais with a bunch of officers 1/2 your grade and accomplishments in full service dress who are at attention saluting as the colors parade by while you are wearing an off-the rack blazer with a pocket protector and your hand over your heart like you're a guest instead of their commander?

Start from there and do the math.

Look, if you have a medical issue that prevents you for being able to wear the uniform, that's one thing.

But people with those issues are a very small component of the membership. As I said, any reg will exclude some people.

If you aren't among that minority, lose the weight or shave. If you won't, then your priority is not how you look on a dais.

[Eclipse]

If you aren't among that minority, lose the weight or shave. If you won't, then your priority is not how you look on a dais.

Its not how the member looks, its how CAP looks, and the fact that CAP is more than happy to accept 110% of member efforts, while
not returning the most basic level of recognition or respect for its members in them being able to wear the same get-up as everyone
else.

Point to a SINGLE other organization that operates remotely like CAP and does that to its members.

[JoeTomasone]

Its not how the member looks, its how CAP looks, and the fact that CAP is more than happy to accept 110% of member efforts, while
not returning the most basic level of recognition or respect for its members in them being able to wear the same get-up as everyone
else.

Point to a SINGLE other organization that operates remotely like CAP and does that to its members.

How does the CG Aux handle this sort of thing?

[Rotorhead]

If you aren't among that minority, lose the weight or shave. If you won't, then your priority is not how you look on a dais.

Its not how the member looks, its how CAP looks, and the fact that CAP is more than happy to accept 110% of member efforts, while
not returning the most basic level of recognition or respect for its members in them being able to wear the same get-up as everyone
else.

Point to a SINGLE other organization that operates remotely like CAP and does that to its members.

How many branches of the military have auxiliaries?

[FlyingTerp]

Point to a SINGLE other organization that operates remotely like CAP and does that to its members.

US Navy Sea Cadets Corps Adults - Reference:  http://www.seacadets.org/public/officer/trifold-faq-officer-low.pdf  (see section "Do I need to be physically fit?"  Notice this is strict US Navy Height/Weight.

I also believe US Army Cadet Corps has strict height/weight/grooming to even join their NCO/Officer Corps.

....now I will be attacked for providing this information.

[High Speed Low Drag]

No, you will not.
Could you please advise the missions of these units and how large they are?

[Smithsonia]

How does the Coast Guard handle the Fat and Fuzzy Issue?
There is one Admiral in the Coast Guard, Thad Allen;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thad_W._Allen

You can decide for yourself. The Admiral is my age. I'd think that the
Coast Guard appears to be a little looser on the weight regs than the Air Force.

[Rotorhead]

Point to a SINGLE other organization that operates remotely like CAP and does that to its members.

US Navy Sea Cadets Corps Adults - Reference:  http://www.seacadets.org/public/officer/trifold-faq-officer-low.pdf  (see section "Do I need to be physically fit?"  Notice this is strict US Navy Height/Weight.

I also believe US Army Cadet Corps has strict height/weight/grooming to even join their NCO/Officer Corps.

....now I will be attacked for providing this information.

From the pdf:

You must also meet U.S. Navy weight
standards to wear the NSCC uniform.  Those who do not meet
the weight requirements may wear an alternate civilian style uniform.

[MIKE]

How does the CG Aux handle this sort of thing?

Much like CAP there is what the manual says and what actually happens in the field.  Rather than try to explain how things are "different", I'll post the portion of the manual that deals with uniforms and you can read it for yourself: http://fellowship.d11nuscgaux.info/AUXmanual/AuxManCh10.pdf

[jeders]

What do you "do" in CAP that causes you to look like an 8th grader in your opinion?

I have appeared on television and at public events in both the BBDUs and white/grey without looking like that.

Ever stand in a military formation on a military dais with a bunch of officers 1/2 your grade and accomplishments in full service dress who are at attention saluting as the colors parade by while you are wearing an off-the rack blazer with a pocket protector and your hand over your heart like you're a guest instead of their commander?

Start from there and do the math.

If you carry yourself professionally, if you act like the commander, then the fact that you're wearing a blazer and not a military style uniform is meaningless vanity.

I'm sorry if you feel cheated that you can't wear the AF-style uniforms, really I am. I know it sucks, and it really isn't very fair. But the example you gave is pure vanity and has no real bearing.

[FlyingTerp]

No, you will not.
Could you please advise the missions of these units and how large they are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Naval_Sea_Cadet_Corps - The article says about 200 units.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Cadet_Corps - There are quite of few of their members that have/had membership with CAP.  I'll let them share info about their organization and NCO/Officer requirements.

[Eclipse]

If you carry yourself professionally, if you act like the commander, then the fact that you're wearing a blazer and not a military style uniform is meaningless vanity.

Really?  Then why the need for military style uniforms at all?

[EMT-83]

I was at the NER conference banquet at Eisenhower Hall at West Point a couple of years ago. Some attending were in mess dress, others in service dress and some of us in corporate attire. At no time was I looked down upon or made to feel like a second-class citizen. We were all in awe of the surroundings and our good fortune to be there.

The uniform I choose to wear has absolutely no bearing on my value to the organization, nor do I care if others have that perception.

[Eclipse]

The uniform I choose to wear has absolutely no bearing on my value to the organization, nor do I care if others have that perception.

Then again, what's the ultimate point or value to the mission of all the badges, ribbons, and finery?  Either its important or it isn't.  If its important, it should be reasonably equal for all, if its not important, we should stop kidding ourselves, dump it, and start actually executing the mission.

Considering all the angst and calories burned about favoritism in decorations, PD being just a check-box, grade having no weight, and CAP (supposedly) being viewed as a wanna-bee service by their big-brother, you're going to have to reach pretty far to find the place where and how the uniforms and bling serve as mission assets beyond basic agency identification during ES, which can be accomplished with a vest or golf shirt.

I love the uniform and am humbled by the privilege to wear it and be affiliated with the US Military, but the logical arguments about the uniform's importance break down pretty fast when you have two classes of participants and especially considering the way the CAP program has evolved over the last 1/2 century.

[JoeTomasone]

How does the CG Aux handle this sort of thing?

Much like CAP there is what the manual says and what actually happens in the field.  Rather than try to explain how things are "different", I'll post the portion of the manual that deals with uniforms and you can read it for yourself: http://fellowship.d11nuscgaux.info/AUXmanual/AuxManCh10.pdf

To sum from a quick skim: All Auxies should strive to meet USCG grooming standards, leaders at all levels should strive to ensure that it happens.

If you don't/don't want to meet the grooming requirements, there is an alternate uniform for you.


Sounds pretty much like what we have, except I saw no mention of weight.

[Eclipse]

Is it "should" or "shall" because there's a big pile of hair between those two words...

[Spike]

How does the CG Aux handle this sort of thing?

Much like CAP there is what the manual says and what actually happens in the field.  Rather than try to explain how things are "different", I'll post the portion of the manual that deals with uniforms and you can read it for yourself: http://fellowship.d11nuscgaux.info/AUXmanual/AuxManCh10.pdf

Thanks Mike! 
I am surprised to see many CG and CGAUX Uniform elements are actually Air Force Uniform items.  So, the Coast Guard Auxiliary can wear Air Force Uniform Items that even the USAF Auxiliary can not wear.  They get to wear them without having to attach awful grey junk to them.   

We (CAP) have been so screwed by past members and need to build the relationship betwen AF and CAP back to what it was pre-1985.

[Bluelakes 13]

Two-thirds of Americans are overweight, a percentage that has skyrocketed from the 50's and 60's.  Any large and diverse organization like ours would show a similar statistic.  Why have a uniform that only about 1/3 of us should be wearing? Many of us are still living in the 50's and 50's and quote heritage and tradition, neglecting today's reality.

And the obesity rate among children and teenagers is getting worse.  I have seen many overweight cadets turned SM who continue to wear the USAF style because they did as a cadet.  And their commander never told them otherwise, probably because it would make them a hypocrite.

And it's not only the weight issue.  Many of us are ignorant of the proper wear or just don't care.  Most do not even see the infractions, but we PAO's certainly do, especially if they are in our photos. I see this equally perturbing.

As has been said, unless our commanders lead by example, and many do not, this problem will continue to propagate.  At least I can say that my commander looks mighty fine in the USAF style uniform!   

[Spike]

I love the uniform and am humbled by the privilege to wear it and be affiliated with the US Military, but the logical arguments about the uniform's importance break down pretty fast when you have two classes of participants and especially considering the way the CAP program has evolved over the last 1/2 century.

Again, I agree with you postings and reasoning, but not with the 50 year term you mentioned.  I can go back to specific events that transpired between 1985 and 1997.  That is the time period where the AF "abandoned" CAP.  They stopped writing CAP regs, stopped having daily input and some control over CAP and where a group of CAP Members brought us to where we are today. 

Basically in 2000, we lost our status as full time USAF Auxiliary.  We need to get that back, and if that means ditching CD missions.....you have my vote!

[Spike]

Bluelakes 13......

You hit the right spot.  We (as a society) are living by standards invented in the 1950's.  You would find it interesting how weight standards and US Produce/Grain production is linked.  However that is a discussion that should take place in the conspiracy forum.

My reasoning.....if Joe Blow Airman First Class can be 40 pounds over AF allowable, why can't Joe Blow Cap member be 20 pounds over?  We are seen less (LESS) by the public than the Air Force and Military in general.  Do we really represent the Air Force in a Bad light.  Our uniforms say "Civil Air Patrol", not "USAF". 

The Army and Air Force allows State Defense Forces an almost indistinguishable uniform for all of their volunteers.  The only difference is a red nametag or the "State Defense Force" branchtape.  From a distance they appear the exact same as Army and Air Force members.

The Air Force is punishing those CAP Members that are heavy or have a beard for reasons that are so 1999!