The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[ctrossen]

I was just on the Hock's website to order some uniform items for a few new members and saw this:

The Hock Shop
Civil Air Patrol Uniforms & Insignia
24 February 2010

To Our Customers:

Due to an ongoing lawsuit, we have been prohibited from selling articles which contain the words "Civil Air Patrol", the letters "CAP" or the three-bladed propeller.  These items have been removed from our website and are not available for sale by us.  We hope that this will be a temporary situation. If it is resolved, the items will return to our website.  A more formal announcement will be posted as soon as it is received from our attorneys.
We realize that this puts a burden on our customers who now will have to order some of their requirements from us; and the rest elsewhere.  We also feel that it is unfair for our customers to have to pay two shipping charges to obtain the items they need.  As a result, we are temporarily suspending shipping charges on all orders for which the customer requests UPS Ground shipping.  This free ground shipping applies to orders of any amount. We will continue our practice of shipping all orders received by 3 PM Eastern Time, the same day that the order is received. We hope this takes some of sting out of the inconvenience that our customers will experience as a result of this restriction placed on us.  Your past support as well as your continuing support is greatly appreciated.

Thomas E. Flanagan
Owner

It's probably not a surprise that it eventually happened, but nonetheless it's a problem for the membership. If we lose the Hock Shop, we lose probably the last place we can go to for CAP uniform items with decent prices and customer service. (I've had nothing but good service from the Hock, and on the flip side nothing but problems and poor service with Vanguard).

[Strick]

@####*#*@#&@&#^  Thay what I have to say.........This guy provides a great service to CAP memebers.   SCAMGUARD WINS AGAIN!

[don736]

Very sorry to about this....
I've always had outstanding service from The Hock Shop over many years.  I've avoided dealing with Vanguard because of their reputation for poor service/inferior products. 
Guess Vanguard just can't stand the competition...

[a2capt]

Wow.


..and combatting it with free shipping.

OTOH, what I really think it's time to do, is rise up against the machine here.

I've not been overly thrilled with the quality of the merchandise from the Hock Shop, BUT.. I will say they do a 300% better job than the Big V ever did, and would do nothing short of make it right when they screwed up.


Everything was fine when we could get stuff however, whatever, wherever we wanted.

Now with the Scamguard Kickback, the whole thing just blows.

Pointedly, too. After all, many vendors were able to justify participation in the market place previously, where as the big V said "no, unless we are the sole supplier."

Who died and made them special?

They have had *years* to get their act together.

I have to wonder if this has anything to do with working out their losses on the CSU debacle. Probably not, NHQ probably had to buy all that stuff, too.

NHQ gets a kickback from the purchases of CAP SKU's, in some places folks have pointed out differences in the price for the same item if you buy from the "Air Force" page, or the "Civil Air Patrol" page, the big V says "ooops" and fixes it.

Sorry, I don't buy the "ooops". CAP while a corporation, is basically a corporation dependent on appropriated funds and is closely integrated model wise after the Air Force.  The military branches are not beating down vendors for putting "ARMY" , "AIR FORCE", on stuff.

CAP throws lawyers at stuff like if they were ground teams looking for lost pages in the law library.

It's sad that NHQ can't clear the same amount they get kicked back from VG on their own, and SAVE the members the price of these items by not having kickbacks be built into the price.

You know we are paying for it.

[cap235629]

I wouldn't sweat to much. Tom has been in business for something like 20 years and will probably prevail. He was around before Vanguard became "exclusive".

[Gunner C]

I'm surprised it took this long.  NHQ took its time to send out a cease and desist order.  Hopefully, Tom will prevail or at least get NHQ/Vanguard to back off.  No competition equals higher prices.

[Strick]

If we want to do something we need to start an online Petition for TOM and stand behind him We need to let the powers that be that the past aand current memebership have benifited from his buisness..  Looking at his website he does not have much of anything since he had to remove stuff.   With the Economy they wa it is I am sure that this is going to hurt a small busness owner like him.  I dont think vanguard is hurting.  Any time I have had a problem with the he takes care of it right of way.  With vanguard , any time I have hada problem they try and blame it on me or make an excuse.   I wonder how much in lawyer fees this costing him? .  If I was CAP National leadership, I would cease services with Vnaguard and give TOM the rights to sell the products we need. 

P.S If any body is interested in the online petition thing and can start one that would be great, I am not that computer savy...

[Eclipse]

How can he prevail?  Unless he has a license agreement, he has no leg to stand on, and if they are going to start licensing the insignia, it should go to RFP's.

[Irishrenegade]

http://www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html

tell me what to write and I can write it up...if not that is the link to make one...pretty simple

[rmcmanus]

Lt Col Tom Flanagan is a classy guy who has devoted decades of his time to ensure that we received the best service.  It is very sad to learn that he must face a situation like this.  Since 1984 I have spoken to him and ordered thousands of dollars of equipment.  I will follow this situation pray that the causes are rectified in his favor.

I'm still with you Tom!

[DogCollar]

This is very distressing news!  I have NEVER had a problem with any item or service I received from the Hock Shop.  Like many others, I have had my share of issues with Vanguard.  I always thought choice and competition were hallmarks of democratic capitalism?  Silly me.

[davidsinn]

This is very distressing news!  I have NEVER had a problem with any item or service I received from the Hock Shop.  Like many others, I have had my share of issues with Vanguard.  I always thought choice and competition were hallmarks of democratic capitalism?  Silly me.

National Board is tomorrow. Email your wing king and express your extreme displeasure with this. It might make things happen.

[heliodoc]

Poor CAP, can't stand a little competition?

Isn't that what the USA was built upon

Poor CAP having to bully a competitor due to licensing...

RFP's and CAP?   Really?  Did Vanguard file an RFP for its "exclusive right?"

Poor, Poor CAP having to get a lawsuit a a small operator.  CAP, another factor in today's litiguous (sp) society...proving it is no more than the guy stubbing his toe on a city sidewalk and suing the city

So CAP can not claim that they are above board when THEY need to to sue, huh?

WOW!!

[Ned]

Let me start with the standard disclaimer: I have nothing against Tom or his business and genuinely wish him well.

But we should remember how we got into our current situation with Vanguard.

For decades, CAP lost buckets of money running our own insignia/uniforms/doodads and trinkits store.  Whether we called it the Bookstore or CAPMART, whether we ordred via the mail, on the phone, or on the web.  GOB managers or professional managers.

It just bled money.  Which was dues money paid in by you and me.  Money that could have been used for other programs and projects - it went down the drain in a torrent of red ink.

So our volunteer leaders wisely decided to outsource the function after a competative bidding process.  Vanguard won.  And it was "Win-Win" for CAP and the membership.

• CAP got to save the afore-mentioned buckets of money.
  
• CAP gets money returned from VG that is used to support training.
  
• CAP members get to purchase the full line of CAP insignia, even the "less used" stuff.

(Obviously, the fact the VG returns some money to CAP means that essentially by definition that VG could choose to charge less for some or all of their CAP items.  The problem comes with the assumption that they would.)

And clearly VG charges more for some of the popular items like "CAP" tapes  for BDUs, etc.

But the simple fact is that they pretty much have to, in order to offer our less popular insignia at reasonable prices.  For example, VG can probably sell thousands of embroidered CAP tapes a year, but I would be surprised if they sold more that a couple of dozen Master CDI badges a year.  If our veteran CDI had to pay the full  cost of dies, enamel machines, etc., their badges would cost hundreds of dollars each.

Tom and others can charge less simply because they are not obligated to carry the full line of CAP insignia.  They are in essense, siphoning off the low hanging fruit which makes it that much harder for VG to carry our full product line.

So in a very real sense, popular items like CAP tapes subsidize the "micro-market" stuff like Master CDI badges which would otherwise become prohibitively expensive.

Vanguard service can be problematic at times, but I have been around long enough to remember similar and perhaps more vocal complaints about the Bookstore and CAPMART.

Maybe we could have a good discussion about why CAP needs so many unique insignia and uniforms, instead of using "off the rack" stuff.

Heck, does anybody have a count of how many unique CAP insignia, ribbons, badges, etc there are?  My WAG is over two hundred - each of which have to be designed, manufactured, stored, cataloged, marketed, sold, and delivered.

VG dies a pretty good job, all things considered.

[lordmonar]

Well....I'm a six of one half dozen of the other sort of guy on this issue.  I have had good service and quality product from both Vanguard and the Hock.  And I have had poor service and cheap product from both.

Bottom line is that corporation owns the rights to CAP and all our insignia and they gave exclusive rights to Vanguard for a rebate on sales.

This is not a SCAM...this is a normal standard business practice.

If anything we are to blame for this legal action by pushing so many customers to the Hock Shop....once he started making a significant cut it was inevitable that Vanguard and CAP would have to take action.

Sorry it is happening....but that is just the way business works.

[Eclipse]

^ +1

[Майор Хаткевич]

Granted I haven't used the Hock since CAPMart came around, but...

The reason I began to use CAPMart and Vanguard was BECAUSE Hock was recommended to me by word of mouth, but did not deliver on the expectations.

It took Hock 8 WEEKS to get me my blue tapes for my first uniform...not knowing other sources even after that I went to them. Having seen the crap that came from them (this is circa 2004), I was glad to use CAPMart.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

WTF??!!??!!

I've never had anything but good service from The Hock.

Of course, this means you can't buy grey rank epaulettes or any style nameplate except the USAF brushed silver, CAP cutouts, etc. etc. etc.

[FW]

Patrick and Ned are absolutely correct.  CAP has an "exclusive" contract with Vangard and, it will probably remain in force for some time.  We've received  about $230,000 in the last 4 years from them.  The money has gone directly to regional/national training site improvements.  Vangard continually improves the service we receive (I know; it still needs improvement).  The only way Vangard will be more receptive at this point is to complain up the chain to Mr. Don Rowland, CAP's Executive Director.  I find however, phone orders are the best way to get items with the least problems.

[Eclipse]

Of course, this means you can't buy grey rank epaulettes or any style nameplate except the USAF brushed silver, CAP cutouts, etc. etc. etc.

?