ICL for Phaseout of CSU posted

[Platelet]

Next, let's see what Eclipse wants to do about unifying the flight suit situation.

Blue flight suit.

Also - does it have to be NOMEX?  After all, we're not riding rockets the way an F-16 driver does, and, as has been pointed out, not all aircrews wear a flight suit.  I've flown with pilots wearing flight suits, golf shirts and BDU's.


green flight suits are a heckof alot cheaper than the blue............stick with the green..............I would wear the blue but it is way to expensive.  I get neww green mil spec onesfor about 29.00 with the tag.   

Non-NOMEX are a lot less of a hit on the wallet.

I want ORANGE Flight Suits back, most of what we do is SAR, or related.

Platelet

[Strick]

I liked the maroon slides, never wore them, but I have a large collection of them............I would like to see cadet officers go to grey slides and grey nameplate........  we all should have the same colored slides, nametag, regardless of status or grade.  Whe I was a cadet officer, I was saluted by Enlisted Air Force folks, they saw the blue slides and saluted.  I am surprised this is not any issue for the Air Force, JAFROTC wears black slides to be distinctive.   

[Eclipse]

Some states have supplements that require Nomex for aircrews.  We've beat that up pretty hard here - seems like a silly idea since
the crash in a Cessna is likely to be a higher risk than fire, and we don't make aircrew wear helmets, but it is what it is.

Orange flightsuits would be about as useful as Nomex - its not like you can see them from the ground.

Considering what and how we fly, and that we utilize GA pilots who fly in shorts the rest of the week, there's really no justification for
flightsuits at all beyond the coolness factor.

Lose them and make the golf shirt the standard flight uniform.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have no idea about the history for the gray.  I'm guessing some of the seasoned members here know the reasons for it.   I have heard from some long time members about the awful maroon loops that we had to wear for a while.  I think the gray is distinctive and subtle, versus the maroon which was distinctive and loudly ugly.

Berry boards.  YECH.

That's what we were wearing when I joined.  I joined just after the blue CAP epaulettes and hard rank were disallowed.  We still had a few of them in Squadron storage but we couldn't wear them.

Depending on who you ask, the berry boards were either a punishment from the AF for bad behaviour, a former National CC who "promoted himself" to Major General, or a "guiding" from them toward "distinctiveness."  I don't know the real story.

When I joined, I wore a blue uniform with blue nameplate and maroon shoulder boards.  We looked like the Iraqi Air Force.

The grey shoulder boards, nameplates and epaulettes, and U.S. cutouts, came in around '94-'95.  The grey epaulettes were, and are, a very welcome change from the berry boards.  I jacked my berry boards in the trash as soon as I got my grey ones.  I have no problem at all with the grey epaulettes.

[arajca]

I'd like to see the gray pants standardized as well since they are all over the map in terms of cut, quality, fabric, and color.  But I'm guessing this is a concession to expense, which is not unreasonable.

A reasonable standard for grey pants could be:
heather grey dress pants, side entry pockets, without pleats or cuffs.

Heather grey is a standard color that the vast majority of clothiers carry, can get, and understand, unlike medium grey. Heather grey purchased from several different clothiers is identical, or the difference is noticible only when you're up close and extremely personal.

[Strick]

Some states have supplements that require Nomex for aircrews.  We've beat that up pretty hard here - seems like a silly idea since
the crash in a Cessna is likely to be a higher risk than fire, and we don't make aircrew wear helmets, but it is what it is.

Orange flightsuits would be about as useful as Nomex - its not like you can see them from the ground.

Considering what and how we fly, and that we utilize GA pilots who fly in shorts the rest of the week, there's really no justification for
flightsuits at all beyond the coolness factor.

disagree. flight suits are functional for what we do,the pockets and pen pocketsare extremly useful.  Now if you want to use a polo for flying, I woul suggest a5.11 brand polo with the pen pocket on te arm.   For SAR work, an ornageflightsuit is ideal..   

Lose them and make the golf shirt the standard flight uniform.

[Fuzzy]

I liked the maroon slides, never wore them, but I have a large collection of them............I would like to see cadet officers go to grey slides and grey nameplate........  we all should have the same colored slides, nametag, regardless of status or grade.  Whe I was a cadet officer, I was saluted by Enlisted Air Force folks, they saw the blue slides and saluted.  I am surprised this is not any issue for the Air Force, JAFROTC wears black slides to be distinctive.

Cadet snipers take him down!

[Spike]

Well I did some digging in my Squadron blackhole (AKA "supply room") and found all of the CAPM39-1's back to 1965, as well as all the CAP newspaper clippings for uniform items.  In the 1991 paper clipping the NEC met and agreed to "cut down on the number of CAP uniforms", allow the blue polo with the new grey pants "standardize the grey pants and look for a specific brand that is not Levi or Hanes", "allowed wear of the guayabera (sp) shirt with the grey pants", "decide by the next board meeting if a white polo (designed by North Carolina Wing) should replace the now approved blue polo", and finally........ FOLLOW AIR FORCE UNIFORM RULES AND REGULATION, except where they specifically want cap distinctive items.  Which meant carrying around a copy of 39-1 and the Air Force Instruction.  The Executive Director at the time (A Air Force Colonel) recommended that CAP provide a copy of 39-1 to be included in the soon to be updated Air Force Reg.  The CAP uniform Committee rejected that proposal by the Air Force.

Also, the NCAC recommended many changes to the uniforms and Cadet Program (12 all together) and all were approved.

So, looking back, when the AF ran most day to day operations at NHQ.....CAP functioned very well.  All publications were written by the Air Force, signed by 2 Air Force Officers (admin and Executive Director) and the CAP Commander. 

What the hell happened?  How did we lose Air Force guidance??

[Eclipse]

What the hell happened?  How did we lose Air Force guidance??

BRAC.

The world changed and the military shrank.

Its almost like "Its A Wonderful Life" where you can draw lines from what's not there to the consequences.

My city had a substantial AFRES presence, a large Naval Air station, plus Guard and Reservist bases all over the state.
Now we're down to two bases, neither all that big in the grand scheme, and a couple armories - everything else is
gone or a museum.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers, and no Buck Rogers means no one to steer the ship, so it was turned over to civilians who had
different ideas, agendas, and no far-reaching mission.

Times 50 states and all the territories.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Two BRAC's; 1994 and 2005.

When I first joined (1993), we had close ties with the AF, ANG and AFRES.

Those loosened as the AF shed people and shifted more and more to the ANG and AFRES (call a Guard member or Reservist a "weekend warrior" now and see how quickly you're corrected).

Eclipse has already detailed a lot of what happened at National. 

Also, in 1995 we almost ceased to exist.  Senator John McCain had a bee in his bonnet about CAP and wanted to remove us completely from the AF and any Federal funding.

The stuff runs downhill, to the Wing, Group and Squadron levels.

We went from LO's that were AF/AFRES to State Directors that were retired AF/ANG/AFRES and CAP Corporate Employees.

Older officers and SNCO's that were familiar with CAP retired and were replaced by newbies out of BMT/OTS who knew little to nothing about CAP, except stories they heard about us being wannabes who trolled for salutes we weren't entitled to and didn't know how to wear the uniform.  They tended to support JROTC rather than CAP, and many could care less about CAP except for the cadet side (warm bodies for Lackland AFB).

And, we had our own little peccadilloes with our own people at the top...who wanted it both ways: away from direct Air Force control, but still wanting the benefits that went with being the AF Auxiliary.

Then we lost our full-time AF Auxiliary status.

The uniform issue is probably the most visible representation of our often-schizoid can't-decide-who-we-are (civilian SAR/DR/ES, quasi-military volunteer AF, youth program?) mindset.

Having a National CC who had delusions of grandeur that became associated with a genuinely good, if flawed, idea (the CSU) didn't help.

Sometimes I wonder what we'll need to do to rebuild our relationship with the AF...considering that there is a substantial chunk of CAP's membership that could care less if we have anything to do with the AF.

I am grateful to General Courter that she got the "grace period" for phasing out the CSU and came up with modifications that I would be quite pleased to see adopted permanently.

[FW]

 
Good summaries of why and where we are now.  However, contrary to some opinions, we are always "the auxiliary"; just not for insurance and reimbursement purposes.  It's been this way since the 80's. except, now there is an "auxiliary office" at the pentagon.

We "lost Air Force guidance" because there was no money nor man power to continue it.  With the war, I doubt if things will change.  Plus, with the law passed in 2000, CAP will continue to function as a self governing independent body; no matter how much congress gives us every year.

As far as State Directors are concerned, they are now civilian AF employees at a GS 13 pay grade.  Some never saw the inside of an AF aircraft, let alone wear the uniform.  Wing Administrators are CAP employees and have no oversight functions. 

And, I'm grateful Gen Courter sent out that ICL too however, the air force already allowed the extension (without mods, BTW.) as noted in the comment section of the last NB meeting agenda.  And, yes, the mods would work great as the new "CSU".

[Eclipse]

As far as State Directors are concerned, they are now civilian AF employees at a GS 13 pay grade.  Some never saw the inside of an AF aircraft, let alone wear the uniform.  Wing Administrators are CAP employees and have no oversight functions. 

To me, the biggest mistake is having CAP-USAF outside the chain of command.  The SDs are basically stewards of the toys and money,
and can really only get involved when there are gross FW&A issues.  They are forced to watch from the sidelines as things which should be
simple "decide and move on" issues drag on for years while real problems are left on the table ignored.

[tdepp]

Sometimes I wonder what we'll need to do to rebuild our relationship with the AF...considering that there is a substantial chunk of CAP's membership that could care less if we have anything to do with the AF.

CyBorg:

No USAF, no CAP, IMHO.  I understand that there have been massive changes to the military, to us, and to society since 1941.  And perhaps a little tending to the USAF garden is in order.  My own, albeit, limited experience is that most members I've met like being associated with the USAF and the USAF officers who "oversee" us are nothing but respectful and appreciative of what we do. 

There will always be challenges and changes.  The ELT change.  Will domestic unmanned flights replace our SAR flights?  Technological changes only accelerate with time.  Organizations like CAP change more slowly. 

Then again, maybe I'm just a sunny optimist and see the good in every d*mn thing. 

[kd8gua]

Speaking of epaulettes, has anyone else noticed a substantial size difference between the old Hock Shop/CAP Bookstore cadet epaulettes, and the new Vanguard production? I have several pairs of cadet epaulettes, one set I bought in about 2004 new from The Hock, along with some miniature and full size C/WO gold pips, and another pair I received in a lot of CAP clothing and cadet ribbons from a lady in NYWG. Both of these pairs are the same size, which is about the size of the female USAF epaulettes. Vanguard's cadet epaulettes are full, "male" size, just like the gray epaulettes for Seniors.

Anyone know why the change?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Nope, but why did you get C/WO pips in 2004?

[kd8gua]

Collector's reasons. Eventually I'd like to create some type of display of my various CAP items.

[Custer]

...
I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform,

For the record the Army Blue Dress Uniform has been around for a looooong time. But with the elimination of the green dress uniform it has become the everyday dress uniform, not just for formal occasions anymore. The only hint I've seen that the Army objects to the uniform is that someone on this forum displayed a picture of the Army uniform on the site and observed the similarity, along with a comment about how close the shirts matched.

Army should not have a say in our Corp Unmiform.  Check Page 21 of the Agenda. We are so WEAK!
b

"One reason possibly cited for the elimination of the CAP Corporate Uniform was its
somewhat similarity to the new Army Blue Service Dress Uniform. The Army has done

away with their green service dress uniform and has updated an older blue uniform style

for the modern era. Differences are many between the CAP Corporate Uniform and this

Army uniform, but as you can see below, some similarities do exist."  from the2010 Winter National Board agenda page 21

Reading this, whomever wrote this is saying "maybe the Army objected". The National Board doesn't know why the uniform was rejected, only that maybe, the Army didn't like it. The opinion that the uniform is too close to the U.S. Army uniform is ridiculous. The trousers are a completely different shade and the NCO/Officer stripe is not used by the Civil Air Patrol. Yes the shiry is the same, but is also worn by every airline pilot in the world.

The CAP Blue/white uniform did not look like a current US Army uniform.  However THIS one does: http://www.kfreeman.com/usrc/

[JC004]

...
The CAP Blue/white uniform did not look like a current US Army uniform.  However THIS one does: http://www.kfreeman.com/usrc/

LMAO.  I needed that.  Oh, HWSNBN...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What the heck is that "BG" doing wearing CAP ribbons?

Isn't there something in 39-1 about CAP ribbons only being worn on CAP uniforms?

You can't wear them on the Coast Guard Auxiliary uniform, nor, I think the Sea Cadets, or of course on actual military uniforms, so where's this guy get off?

Just because "MG" whatsisname may say it's good, doesn't mean it's so.

[PHall]

What the heck is that "BG" doing wearing CAP ribbons?

Isn't there something in 39-1 about CAP ribbons only being worn on CAP uniforms?

You can't wear them on the Coast Guard Auxiliary uniform, nor, I think the Sea Cadets, or of course on actual military uniforms, so where's this guy get off?

Just because "MG" whatsisname may say it's good, doesn't mean it's so.

Don't be so sure of that. What does the CGA or  the Sea Cadets uniform regs say?