Update on ABU wear.

[DrJbdm]

    John is actually pretty close to the mark on this. The problem we face is within CAP. There is a belief that in CAP that we need to be EXTREMELY distinctive and not just distinctive from a distance of 100ft in normal lighting conditions. We actually drive the Air Force away from us and cause our own ridicule by the way we want to be very different.

    We should strive as an organization, to match as closely to the regular Air Force as we legally can and not continue to think up new ways to be different. It sounds to me that we are actually hating the thought of ever being confused as regular Air Force officers by anyone including civilians. Look at basic psychology here; we as a human beings tend to repel away those that are different. We need to change the culture that continuously drives us to want to be different. 

    As for uniforms and how they are worn; perhaps CAP should adopt the AFI on Uniforms, it's far better written then our own manual on uniform wear. We can very easily edit the AFI to fit some of our other non Air Force uniforms.

    As for the ABU, I sure hope they finally bring CAP up to the modern era from the Vietnam style insignia that we still wear today. Don't you think that after almost 40 years that CAP can FINALLY update the insignia? leave the ultra marine blue behind, get rid of the plastic case insignia, get rid of the full color cartoon style patches that we have. Lets finally look military in our military style uniforms, perhaps our credibility will improve as well.

[Gunner C]

Lets finally look military in our military style uniforms, perhaps our credibility will improve as well.

:clap: :clap:

[Hawk200]

The problem we face is within CAP. There is a belief that in CAP that we need to be EXTREMELY distinctive and not just distinctive from a distance of 100ft in normal lighting conditions. We actually drive the Air Force away from us and cause our own ridicule by the way we want to be very different.

    We should strive as an organization, to match as closely to the regular Air Force as we legally can and not continue to think up new ways to be different. It sounds to me that we are actually hating the thought of ever being confused as regular Air Force officers by anyone including civilians. Look at basic psychology here; we as a human beings tend to repel away those that are different. We need to change the culture that continuously drives us to want to be different. 

Initially, I might have agreed with this. However, after getting ahold of the Feb 2009 Minutes, there is this little chunk of info:

Proposal: That the National Board amends, with Air Force approval, CAPM 39-1 to phase out the ultramarine blue embroidery on AF-style BDU and flights suits over the next 18 months, in favor of the dark blue embroidery.

The response from CAP/USAF to this proposal:

CAP-USAF Comments: Do not concur. The ultramarine blue name tapes and accoutrements are necessary to ensure that CAP members are visually distinguishable from Air Force members, as required by Air Force policy:

It would seem that there are some levels above in the AF that don't want us to to look too similar. It would be nice if some of the desires of the CAP membership be put out to the AF general population for some input. Some of the AF population might actually want to see our uniforms improved in appearance as well.

Overall, it is clear that we're facing a small battle on a different front from CAP/USAF staff.

[arajca]

I recall that from the NB meeting, no one had brought forth sample uniforms of each. IMHO, that could have proven that even with the dark blue tapes/fabric, there is significant visual difference. You'd need one current CAP bdu, one proposed CAP bdu, and one AF bdu blouse to demonstrate. It's easy to argue, but putting samples - not merely pictures - up for review caries alot of weight.

[Strick]

Simple solution, lets adopt a soild color field uniform(not Dark blue) green ,grey tan. TheN we could approve our own name tapes and such.  That would stop the AF from worrying about us looking lije them in BDU'S.   If we do get approved for ABU'S IT IT GOING TO COST A BUNCH FOR OUR CADETS.  Lets face it the AF is not going to give us ABU'S like they do to ROTC AFROTC.   I am in the opion that we need a functional field uniform that identifies us as CAP.  If we put pink name strips and patches on our uniform most civilians view us as being part of the ARMY or national Guard.  Most people dont read the patches they just see cammo.   I like being on the AF team but we seem to get treated like the red headed step children(dont be offended if you have red hair, I do).  We have seen national try and brand Civil Air Patrol and not mentiona our affiliation with the Air Force.  I dont buy the arguement because of laws that states while preforming unassigned AF missions we are just CAP so we have to remove USAF AUX from our AC and uniform patches but you can wear a nme tag with gray and whites that mention the AF, doe not make sense to me.  Iguess all of this stuff is above my pay grade.

[adamblank]

All uniform politics aside.  I think the cost issue is an important one to consider.  I imagine that CAP members will still have the BDU option for a long phase-out date.  Even more important IMO is that the ABU is darn hot to wear.  A cooler one is in the works but that will be even further out of our hands than the initial issue supply.

[RADIOMAN015]

This who discussion on this new uniform is silly   Many CAP senior members wearing ANY of the AF style uniforms are not in compliance with the regulations.  It can be grooming, outwear (e.g. no field jackets), etc.   Economically many if not most get free BDU's (shirt & trousers) and just have to buy the various insignias/patches, as well as head gear, shoes, etc so that the reason why members are wearing these uniforms. Of course there's the "wanna bees" group that will buy any & all military uniforms regardless of costs.

I personally bought the Blue BDU's because that uniform has more flexibiity as far as grooming standards as well as hats & outer wear (wouldn't want the mission to go on hold if I forgot my hat ). Also I tend to like having a DISTINCT uniform that says we are Civil Air Patrol and not a military invading force. 

Remember that our new motto is "Citizens Serving Communities, Above & Beyond", it ain't "Mission for America" anymore, and we need a softer image 
RM   

[Hawk200]

I recall that from the NB meeting, no one had brought forth sample uniforms of each. IMHO, that could have proven that even with the dark blue tapes/fabric, there is significant visual difference. You'd need one current CAP bdu, one proposed CAP bdu, and one AF bdu blouse to demonstrate. It's easy to argue, but putting samples - not merely pictures - up for review caries alot of weight.

I would agree. This shows that a lot of the ideas are just put forth, with not a lot of effort put into it.

If anyone here is the POC for proposal on dark blue nametags, let me know. I'll put one together and send it. I don't mind spending a few dollars to create a visual point. It may have far more impact.

It would also show that any naysayers using the excuse that "it's not distinctive enough" are full of it. Which could be enlightening. To say it doesn't show enough difference when you haven't seen it doesn't portray a whole lot of thought either.

[DrJbdm]

    Why do we need a softer image? Do we offend people by looking / being military? I'm sorry if by us being a recognized member of the Air Force team (very way down on the team, but still on the team) that we may be offensive to some of the liberal, pacifist, anti military types but our objective isn't to be non-offensive, it's to get the job done correctly and effectively.

     Yes, we do seem to have an uphill battle to fight with the current Air Force commanders who approve our uniform insignias, but it's a battle well worth fighting. Let's look at the future, if we stopped fighting and just did our own thing and dropped the whole Air Force thing, then all we are doing is hurting ourselves and possibly even relegating ourselves into obscurity. Lets fight the good fight, regardless of how long it takes to change the mind of the current Air Force commanders.

   As it currently stands, CAP has no real credibility of its own in real operational circles, most of our credibility comes from being a part of the Air Force family and having the title United States Air Force Auxiliary, regardless of what the current federal law reads. 

   Dropping ABUs in favor of BBDUs or any other color of BDUs brings us further away from the Air Force; what we need is to fix our problems, and change our image to fit the Air Force image, perhaps then we might enjoy a closer relationship with big blue. It will take work and we will have to change our culture a bit but that may not be a bad thing for the benefits that it may bring. credibility is everything in our line of work. We are not just a youth program anymore.
 
  Current federal law does not demand that we wear ultra marine blue name tapes and insignias, it only requires that we be distinguishable from a reasonable distance at normal lighting conditions. Look at the Navy Sea Cadets, they have current military color name tapes, they don't have to use a different color, they are distinguishable by the wearing of a shoulder patch that blends with the color of the uniform.  The same with the Army Cadets.

[Rodriguez]

Im actually really glad its moving forward. I mean practicality wise the abu has really no purpose, but then again neither did the bdu, were not trying to hide you know. But anyway its becoming very hard to get a good quality set of matching BDUs. Homstead ARB, the closest military outlet to my house is no longer selling BDUs and I hate to get anything thats not US Govt issue.

[PHall]

Current federal law does not demand that we wear ultra marine blue name tapes and insignias, it only requires that we be distinguishable from a reasonable distance at normal lighting conditions. Look at the Navy Sea Cadets, they have current military color name tapes, they don't have to use a different color, they are distinguishable by the wearing of a shoulder patch that blends with the color of the uniform.  The same with the Army Cadets.

Actually, AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3.4, requires that CAP insignia be distinguishable from a distance at low light conditions.

[Major Carrales]

Current federal law does not demand that we wear ultra marine blue name tapes and insignias, it only requires that we be distinguishable from a reasonable distance at normal lighting conditions. Look at the Navy Sea Cadets, they have current military color name tapes, they don't have to use a different color, they are distinguishable by the wearing of a shoulder patch that blends with the color of the uniform.  The same with the Army Cadets.

Actually, AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3.4, requires that CAP insignia be distinguishable from a distance at low light conditions.

Actually, I'm gonna come down on a weird side on this one.  I feel that there should be a distinctive color for the tapes and patches.  Not because it makes us look less like THEM,  but because it makes us look more like US!!!

[ncc1912]

We will likely see an ABU uniform and the ABU-pattern "CIVIL AIR PATROL"/name strips with dark blue lettering.  Metal rank insignia will likely ensue.

Not a chance.  For one thing, our regulations require we be distinctive.

The response from CAP/USAF to this proposal:

CAP-USAF Comments: Do not concur. The ultramarine blue name tapes and accoutrements are necessary to ensure that CAP members are visually distinguishable from Air Force members, as required by Air Force policy:

It would seem that there are some levels above in the AF that don't want us to to look too similar. It would be nice if some of the desires of the CAP membership be put out to the AF general population for some input. Some of the AF population might actually want to see our uniforms improved in appearance as well.

Overall, it is clear that we're facing a small battle on a different front from CAP/USAF staff.

Current federal law does not demand that we wear ultra marine blue name tapes and insignias, it only requires that we be distinguishable from a reasonable distance at normal lighting conditions. Look at the Navy Sea Cadets, they have current military color name tapes, they don't have to use a different color, they are distinguishable by the wearing of a shoulder patch that blends with the color of the uniform.  The same with the Army Cadets.

Actually, AFI 10-2701, Para 1.3.4, requires that CAP insignia be distinguishable from a distance at low light conditions.

It is interesting how people quote regulations like they are hard-and-fast rules that are chiseled in stone somewhere.  Where regulations in CAP might change once every two decades, AF Instructions change frequently (sometimes even annually); especially when there is a change in command or a re-organization such as what is happening to CAP-USAF.

It is important that we put into perspective the current climate in the AF.  We (USAF) are trying to more with less than we have ever had: people, up-to-date aircraft, operating funds, etc.  CAP is no different...  misery loves company.  This is one of the main reasons that CAP-USAF was re-aligned under the Holm Center.  But where this may seem superficial or simply another layer of bureaucracy to some, it also adds an important thing that CAP hasn't had (at least, in a long time) a USAF one-star advocate and a larger umbrella of autonomy.  And CAP-USAF would be the catalyst for any change in the governing regulations.

Previously CAP-USAF/CC (a full-bird) reported directly to a three-star and this would have seriously impeded any type of changes CAP-USAF would have suggested.  The-powers-that-be were seeing us (CAP) as a different entity where differentiation and distinction would have been highly desired.  That is division is not going to be as desirable with CAP-USAF now lumped in with AFJROTC and AFROTC.

You may find that this will facilitate more changes in CAP than you may think.

...Just me thinking outside the box.

Well, there's one BIG difference between CAP and AFJROTC. CAP has adult members, AFJROTC doesn't.
So what works for JROTC may or may not work for CAP.

Inconsequential: I believe that they will see it as enough that CAP adults and cadets wear “CIVIL AIR PATROL” on the uniform as opposed to “U.S. AIR FORCE” that retired Air Force AFJROTC instructors and the active duty AFROTC instructors use.  The ROTC cadets wear just that, “AFJROTC” and “AFROTC” respectively (last I knew).

As a matter of practice though, personally, I find it far less important that our field uniform is as distinctive as our duty uniform, blues.  CAP has done well to distinguish us in that uniform in which the public should see us most often in.  Besides, in most cases I believe that those teams that go out in the field on SAR missions at 0300 wear reflective vests or some other type of distinguishing apparel.  I know I had to.

[BillB]

AFROTC wears U.A. Air Force on BDU/ABU. AFJROTC is not authorized BDU/ABU. Neither has worn AFROTC on BDU's in the past. Whenever I picked up BDUs from the University AFROTC, had to spend time removing the U.S. Air Force patch from them. (that was two months ago)

[wuzafuzz]

I'll be seriously happy camper when BDU's phase out.  It will (or should) erase all the egregious uniform violations I see among CAP adults wearing BDU's.  It seems many of them built their uniform many years ago and 39-1 be dammed after that.  For some reason the BBDU crowd seems to follow regs better than those sporting camouflage BDU's.  That's just my personal observation in this neck of the woods.

This isn't the self-loathing I see mentioned here frequently.  I wear BDU's (they were free) and I wear them PROPERLY.  I don't much care what replaces them but prefer to see everyone in the same outfit and wearing it correctly. 

Ultramarine looks silly as hell on BDU's, but that's an irrelevant personal opinion.  I follow the regs. 

As for cost, start saving your pennies.  Change is coming.  Deal with it.  CAP costs money sometimes.  Have bake sales to help the financially challenged members.  Frankly, most of the obsolete uniforms I see are on members who spend $2,000 on their own radios, have personally owned helicopters / airplanes, or pay plenty for av gas on a routine basis.

At the end of the day I believe we will earn more respect for being squared away, than for the color of our uniforms.  Wearing the Air Force uniform improperly will earn a special level of disdain.

[MIKE]

AFROTC wears U.A. Air Force on BDU/ABU. AFJROTC is not authorized BDU/ABU. Neither has worn AFROTC on BDU's in the past. Whenever I picked up BDUs from the University AFROTC, had to spend time removing the U.S. Air Force patch from them. (that was two months ago)

If AFJROTC isn't athorized BDUs, why would they have 'em in their Uniform Instruction... complete with flag blue on OD AFJROTC tapes?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Hawk:

"In favor of dark blue embroidery?"

Dark blue embroidery would be exactly the same subdued nametapes as are used by the USAF.  That, IMO, does violate their uniform policy.

My (apparently incorrect) understanding was that the UM blue tapes would be phased out in favor of dark blue tapes, but with white embroidery.  This would be in keeping with AF policy of maintaining distinctive CAP features on the AF uniform, and yet give CAP an overall better appearance with ALL of the utility uniforms, BDU, BBDU, and ABU.

[Hawk200]

It is interesting how people quote regulations like they are hard-and-fast rules that are chiseled in stone somewhere.  Where regulations in CAP might change once every two decades, AF Instructions change frequently (sometimes even annually); especially when there is a change in command or a re-organization such as what is happening to CAP-USAF.

What exactly are you saying here? That you can do whatever you want because the pub is gonna change anyway?

When a pub is current, it is "chiseled in stone". If and when it changes, then that's "chiseled in stone". Each and every version of a publication should be treated like it is.

I'm not saying that a pub covers every eventuality, because they don't. That's why they change, and why new ones are written.

Your opening sentence leaves me concerned. Am I misconstruing what you mean? If so, I would appreciate clarification.

[Hawk200]

Hawk:

"In favor of dark blue embroidery?"

No, not at all. If that's what it appeared that I advocated, I apologize.

.... UM blue tapes would be phased out in favor of dark blue tapes, but with white embroidery.  This would be in keeping with AF policy of maintaining distinctive CAP features on the AF uniform, and yet give CAP an overall better appearance with ALL of the utility uniforms, BDU, BBDU, and ABU.

This is what I think we should go to. The tapes and rank are already available, the only thing left would be badges and such.

After reading the minutes, I think the proposal is unclear. At present, we don't have anything with "ultramarine blue embroidery" on it. We have ultramarine blue tapes/cloth with white embroidery on it. For better appearance, I think navy tapes/cloth with white embroidery is the way to go.

I have no problem with distinctive, I think CAP should have that. But UM blue tapes are almost garish on BDU, and I feel it would look just as bad on ABU's. Navy blue tapes would also match up fairly well with the standard blue stripes on BDUs, too. The only thing left to "convert" would be badges.

[heliodoc]

Here is how I am misconstruing things.....

CAP needs a MORE COHERENT "policy" that follows the AF OR get out of wearing the uniform ENTIRELY.

CERT wears its own and if CAP gets or wants DHS missions, it ought to start thinking of an entirely new uni in which the AF will buy in upon

CAPM and ICL blow like the wind and change accordingly.......pub changes or not.   

Luv to defend the CAP uni but I wore a RM uni for 22 years like many members here, and remember changes, too.  Like the beret the US Army luvs so much...CAP gonna want to wear that also?? 

Ye, some CAPers love to quote uni regs left and right......

Time for a new uni for you folks to argue about.  MORE POLO's and tactical pants.   There as equal in price and really does not need Vanguard to float it.  Oh wait, we need Vanguard.... it IS CAP's form of REI Inc

How's that for misconstruing CAP's ability to get with the times in both uniforms and ON TIME policy direction without the need for ICL's that  do not get acted upon too quickly unless its something about getting cadets to get even more online stuff done before encampments and then later pulling those requirements.... does this really look that good in the members eyes??   

CAP needs to change and a NEW uniform is right along those lines......