The Uniform Team

[Hawk200]

FYI:  Squadron patches are not authorized on zoom bags.  have to check on the safety patch, but unit patches are a no-go.

You'll have to prove that to me with something black and white out of the manual. And I mean a specific reference, not just "the manual says you can't". The only statement in the section on flight suits states the following:

"Optional Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on right sleeve. Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch."

Since other patches are listed as authorized, it stands to reason that it means any legitimately authorized patch (which does not mean "Give a XXXX meter" patches, etc). Any patch in good taste that CAP has should be fine. Disputing it seems like picking fly "stuff" out of pepper.

If it doesn't seem that way to many, then maybe it needs to be clarified. Unit patches on CAP uniforms are normal, disallowing it on anything other than blues would be strange. When I see someone in my wing in a green bag, a wing patch is meaningless to me. I know what wing they're from. Squadron identifiers are more important.

You just proved MIKE's point. "Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch"

Here are the choices.

• Wing Patch
• Region Patch
• National Patch

Squadron patch is not listed, and thus, not authorized.

No, I didn't. The statement is "may be wing, region or National shoulder patch". It does not say "may only be wing, region, or National shoulder patch.

First Item: show me a National shoulder patch. You can't, there is no such thing currently authorized. There was a National shoulder tab, and it was specified as such in previous manuals. No National shoulder patch has been authorized for at least a few decades.

Second: Look at table 6-4, starting from item 13 on down. On that page alone, there are eleven patches listed as authorized for the right sleeve of the flightsuit.

A squadron patch is not disallowed, nor specifically approved. As long as it's an approved patch, what's the problem.

Since a single page lists that many patches as authorized for the right sleeve of the flightsuit, do you stand by your statement of those being the only choices?

[BrandonKea]

No, I didn't. The statement is "may be wing, region or National shoulder patch". It does not say "may only be wing, region, or National shoulder patch.

First Item: show me a National shoulder patch. You can't, there is no such thing currently authorized. There was a National shoulder tab, and it was specified as such in previous manuals. No National shoulder patch has been authorized for at least a few decades.

Second: Look at table 6-4, starting from item 13 on down. On that page alone, there are eleven patches listed as authorized for the right sleeve of the flightsuit.

A squadron patch is not disallowed, nor specifically approved. As long as it's an approved patch, what's the problem.

Since a single page lists that many patches as authorized for the right sleeve of the flightsuit, do you stand by your statement of those being the only choices?

Yep. Table 6-4 lists "Badges, Patches, and Devices on Flight Suits,BDU's, Utility Uniforms, and Field Uniforms.

In fact, 6-4 specifically lists, in item 10, Organizational (Unit) Patch. It even tells me where I can wear it.

centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU or field uniform shirt or BDU or dark blue field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket.  (See note 2.)

Nothing about wearing it on the flight suit there.

Questions?

[Hawk200]

Yep. Table 6-4 lists "Badges, Patches, and Devices on Flight Suits,BDU's, Utility Uniforms, and Field Uniforms.

In fact, 6-4 specifically lists, in item 10, Organizational (Unit) Patch. It even tells me where I can wear it.

centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU or field uniform shirt or BDU or dark blue field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket.  (See note 2.)

Nothing about wearing it on the flight suit there.

Questions?

In the table entries on each line dealing with various patches, it states:

"on the right sleeve 1/2 inch below shoulder seam of BDU or field uniform shirt, BDU or dark blue field jacket, utility uniform or flight suit."

The most you will get me to secede is that it would be a gray area, and that the manual contradicts itself with the statement of "optional patch". If you choose not to wear it, that's your choice. It's not mine. Wear of a unit patch on the right sleeve is a standard Air Force practice. Disallowing CAP the wear of unit patches is inconsistent. A unit patch is certainly not an item that's poor taste, and there is no reason to disallow it.

An easy way to deal with it is to eliminate the "Optional patch may be wing, region, or National".  Simply specify that any authorized or approved patch may be worn.

However, you have not addressed the issue of a National shoulder patch, and you stand by your statement of only three authorized patches. A squadron patch is only a partial issue. The manual is inconsistent in itself.

Maybe instead of arguing, we should get it clarified?

[BrandonKea]

Yep. Table 6-4 lists "Badges, Patches, and Devices on Flight Suits,BDU's, Utility Uniforms, and Field Uniforms.

In fact, 6-4 specifically lists, in item 10, Organizational (Unit) Patch. It even tells me where I can wear it.

centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU or field uniform shirt or BDU or dark blue field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket.  (See note 2.)

Nothing about wearing it on the flight suit there.

Questions?

In the table entries on each line dealing with various patches, it states:

"on the right sleeve 1/2 inch below shoulder seam of BDU or field uniform shirt, BDU or dark blue field jacket, utility uniform or flight suit."

The most you will get me to secede is that it would be a gray area, and that the manual contradicts itself with the statement of "optional patch". If you choose not to wear it, that's your choice. It's not mine. Wear of a unit patch on the right sleeve is a standard Air Force practice. Disallowing CAP the wear of unit patches is inconsistent. A unit patch is certainly not an item that's poor taste, and there is no reason to disallow it.

An easy way to deal with it is to eliminate the "Optional patch may be wing, region, or National".  Simply specify that any authorized or approved patch may be worn.

However, you have not addressed the issue of a National shoulder patch, and you stand by your statement of only three authorized patches. A squadron patch is only a partial issue. The manual is inconsistent in itself.

Maybe instead of arguing, we should get it clarified?

Respectfully, I don't think there's clarification needed. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud about it, but I think it's pretty cut and dry.

All the various patches you referred to (I assume you're looking at line 16), all of those are patches for National Activities, and thus I would assume those are "National Patches"

Just because there is no National Shoulder Patch (like a Wing Patch or Region Rocker) doesn't mean there won't be one, or wasn't once one. Yes, the manual is inconsistent and flawed in several areas, however, I really don't think this is one of them.

The argument that it's standard Air Force practice also doesn't fly. If we were the Air Force, we'd be looking at AFMAN 36-2903. I'm sure there's a lot of other AF Standard Practices we don't go by.

[Hawk200]

Your choice to believe that. I believe that it's within the spirit of the manual, even though the letter of the manual contradicts itself.

As to Air Force practice, it's their practice to wear rank insignia on shoulders, nametags over pockets, badges on left chest. Why should we depart from their other practices? What is so wrong about mirroring the Air Force? You haven't said it, but I get the impression that's the way you think.

[BrandonKea]

Your choice to believe that. I believe that it's within the spirit of the manual, even though the letter of the manual contradicts itself.

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that:
...I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values,
Ethics Policies, Constitution & Bylaws, Regulations and all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws....
...I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol. ...

As has been stated several times before on CT, we ARE NOT THE AIR FORCE. We do some things the same, we do some things different. Again, we follow (at least some of us) CAPM 39-1, not AFMAN 36-2903.

[Hawk200]

As I said before, your way of looking at it. You interpret it as forbidden, I don't. You can try the authoriarian post all you want, you haven't given me sufficient reason to change my mind.

[arajca]

You'll have to prove that to me with something black and white out of the manual. And I mean a specific reference, not just "the manual says you can't". The only statement in the section on flight suits states the following:

"Optional Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on right sleeve. Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch."

Since other patches are listed as authorized, it stands to reason that it means any legitimately authorized patch (which does not mean "Give a XXXX meter" patches, etc). Any patch in good taste that CAP has should be fine. Disputing it seems like picking fly "stuff" out of pepper.

If it doesn't seem that way to many, then maybe it needs to be clarified. Unit patches on CAP uniforms are normal, disallowing it on anything other than blues would be strange. When I see someone in my wing in a green bag, a wing patch is meaningless to me. I know what wing they're from. Squadron identifiers are more important.

You just proved MIKE's point. "Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch"

Here are the choices.

• Wing Patch
• Region Patch
• National Patch

Squadron patch is not listed, and thus, not authorized.

Disregarding the list, and keeping in mind that the manual was written before the flag was worn on the right shoulder, the unit patch was NOT worn on the right shoulder. It was (and is) worn on the right BREAST POCKET. Based on that, the unit patch is not authorized for wear on the flight suit.

What clatification is needed? All the patches that are authorized for the flight suit specifically state that. Those that are not (and that also includes the Safety, Comm, and Model Rocketry patches) do not. Remember, the default for 39-1 is that unless it is specifically authorized, it's not permitted.

Compare the following:
NCSA patches:

on the right sleeve 1/2 inch below shoulder seam of BDU or field uniform shirt, BDU or dark blue field jacket, utility uniform or flight suit.

Organizational (Unit) patches:

centered on the lower portion of the right breast pocket of BDU or field uniform shirt or BDU or dark blue field jacket between left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket. (See note 2.)

Note 2 deals with sending the National Curator a sample.

I really can't see someone mistaking their right shoulder for their right breast pocket.

[AlphaSigOU]

As has been stated several times before on CT, we ARE NOT THE AIR FORCE. We do some things the same, we do some things different. Again, we follow (at least some of us) CAPM 39-1, not AFMAN 36-2903.

Ahem... it's AFI 36-2903.  I miss the days when it was called AFR 35-10. 

Somehow 36-2903 just doesn't roll off the tongue or lend itself as a synonym to comply with regs like the olden days. For example - "gotta go get a 35-10 haircut before I get jacked-up by the first shirt..."

[Major Carrales]

Our squadron patch is an "authorized" patch made so my the Texas Wing.  We even went so far has to seek all permission, discussed the matter with Region and National level officers (to which I have presented one framed to the Nation, Region and Wing Commanders).

I would agree with Hawk on this one...

"Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch"

Since a Squadron Patch is authorized by the Wing, it fits the model of this regulation.

On a side note, it is funny how there seems to be a sort of CAP "Common Law" and persons that feel empowered to practice it and impose it upon others.  Especially in these "grey" areas.  Curious?

[Eclipse]

Our squadron patch is an "authorized" patch made so my the Texas Wing.  We even went so far has to seek all permission, discussed the matter with Region and National level officers (to which I have presented one framed to the Nation, Region and Wing Commanders).

I would agree with Hawk on this one...

"Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch"

Since a Squadron Patch is authorized by the Wing, it fits the model of this regulation.

Ditto - all my units, and even one special activity are incorporated into the Wing's supplement to 39-3, with specific indication of wearing it / them in the optional patch areas.

Nothing to see here, move on.

[arajca]

Since when is a unit patch a shoulder patch, considering CAPM 39-1 specifies it as a POCKET patch?

[Spike]

Since when is a unit patch a shoulder patch, considering CAPM 39-1 specifies it as a POCKET patch?

When Wing Kings think they can do whatever they want. 

[Eclipse]

Since when is a unit patch a shoulder patch, considering CAPM 39-1 specifies it as a POCKET patch?

When its worn on the flight suit as an approved optional wing, region, or national patch.

Try to follow the story...

[Larry Mangum]

Hmm, I just spoke to a member of the uniform team, and squadron patches are not considered to be an approved "wing" item.  According to the member only those patches listed in the table are approved for wear on the flight suit, nor do the "Wing Kings" have the authority to approve such item as all patches added to the AF Flight suit require AF approval.  The team will address the points brought up here about this being a "gray" area and address them.

[heliodoc]

MAYBE there will a REAL 39-1 resolution sometime before 2015

WOW Even CAP doesn't know what CAP is doing

Thank God for  flight suits and polos

LET the flamin begin

It is great reading these posts

What is NOT great  .......CAP leadership and its ATTENTION TO DETAIL to unifiorm standards and getting ICL's and everyone on the same sheet of music

Time for NHQ, instead of worrying about DHS missions.... to get everyone in the same

How about that argument for Khakis and polos and flight suits and be done with it ALLLL!!!

TIME for CAP to separate its uniforms from MAMA BLUE...  Time for a 21st Century history change for all the uniform muckraking going around!!!!  1946 is OVER with and trying to align CAP uniforms with AF uniforms is a perpetual headache for all.  Time for NHQ to call it for the khakis and polos and maybe even buy the polos for the members 

They'll probably thanks us for it

[Eclipse]

...white t-shirts and optional patches on a velcro strip...

I'm considered to be the Wing-level stazi and I don't care.

This entire conversation has lowered our collective IQ.

[arajca]

Since when is a unit patch a shoulder patch, considering CAPM 39-1 specifies it as a POCKET patch?

When its worn on the flight suit as an approved optional wing, region, or national patch.

Try to follow the story...

Try to follow the MANUAL.

[Ned]

Time for NHQ, instead of worrying about DHS missions.... to get everyone in the same [uniform].

Of course, you are absolutely correct.

The clothing we are wearing is far more important than any actual missions.

Those silly guys at NHQ never seem to get this right.

Thank you for your insight.


Ned Lee
NHQ Apologist

[Major Carrales]

If the uniform team can guarantee that it will solve some 90% of all the ambiguities, I think they will really be getting somewhere.

However, the USAF is going to transition to something new and their work will then likely have to be redone.  Unless the USAF addresses CAP uniform variants in their publications...thereby forever ending this insipid discussion. (save maybe for CAP DISTINCTIVE uniforms)

I would like to see a real 5 year moratorium on uniform changes in CAP.  I mean a real National Board policy that states that CAP uniforms are not to changefor a period of 5 years.  This would insure that CAP looked the same for at least that long.  Changes could be discussed and on the 4th year a Uniform Team could solicit ideas and make corrections, changes and effect a complete rewrite of CAPM 39-1 for the fifth year.