The Uniform Team

[PHall]

It's been my experience that the people who use the "I'm a volunteer, be nice to me or I'll quit" line aren't usually worth the heartburn they generate to keep them around.

[Gunner C]

It's been my experience that the people who use the "I'm a volunteer, be nice to me or I'll quit" line aren't usually worth the heartburn they generate to keep them around.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

They volunteer for everything except following the rules.

[CadetProgramGuy]

It's been my experience that the people who use the "I'm a volunteer, be nice to me or I'll quit" line aren't usually worth the heartburn they generate to keep them around.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

They volunteer for everything except following the rules.

"Have a nice day....come back when you are in uniform"

I recently had a cadet show up in an incomplete BDU (no nametape), after the squadron commander noted his uniform, I had to be the bad cop.....(SQ/CC said next week blah, blah, blah)

[BrandonKea]

(SQ/CC said next week blah, blah, blah)

My reply would be "next week he can participate"

[JohnKachenmeister]

I guess I get kicked out of the Uniform Nazi Party.

1.  Yes, a "few pounds" overweight is a trivial violation.  Considering that for that few pounds the member has to spend $100-$500 in a new set of uniforms, depending upon his level of participation.  If he looks like a big blue garbage bag, THEN it is a serious violation warranting more action than a cautionary word or mild teasing banter.

2.  Cadet without a nametag?  Is the uniform new?  Is the cadet new?  I can forgive this, considering Vanguard's level of logistic support.  I will just call him "Cadet Unknown" until he gets a nametag on.  He will.  Trust me.

3.  Outdated uniform?  OK, that one goes home to change.  Outdated patches?  I probably won't even say anything about that, unless it is still the round flight suit patch from back in the 90's.  There are, the last time I counted, something like 3 versions of the command patch.  I have more important things to worry about than that.

[Short Field]

Does it specify that they'll be sent home?  I'm not disagreeing with it, just don't waste someone's time and effort if uniform violations have been winked at in the past.  If the penalty is known beforehand, then they'll have no argument.

When I ran my group's aircrew course, I told everyone that the uniform was flight suits and nothing else would be allowed (no smurf suits).  There were no problems.  The PGA commandos either stayed home or got their training elsewhere.

That is nice of you - if they don't wear what you want them to wear, then they can find soneone else to train them.   I need to start picking uniform combos that folks don't wear and make them required so I can reduce the class sizes.   

[Ned]

[. . .]  I had to be the bad cop.

Interesting choice of words.

In general, I don't support sending a cadet home because of relatively minor uniform violations, like a missing name tape.

The whole point of the cadet program is training - and by sending a troop home you are denying them the very essence of our program.

There are a whole lot more tools in the tool box that are more appropriate to fix this uniform violation.

It's like a cop who stopped you for a relatively minor traffic violation like going 5 over the limit on the freeway or forgetting to use your turn signals when changing lanes decided to tow you car and make you walk home.

That would be a "bad cop" because the punishment / inconvenience inflicted is wildly disproportional to offense and actually is counterproductive to the whole purpose of traffic enforcement (getting from point A to point B safely).

I would also hope the traffic cop didn't bad mouth the Chief about being too soft on traffic offenses while she wrote the ticket . . . 


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, bad job title)

[EMT-83]

Does it specify that they'll be sent home?  I'm not disagreeing with it, just don't waste someone's time and effort if uniform violations have been winked at in the past.  If the penalty is known beforehand, then they'll have no argument.

When I ran my group's aircrew course, I told everyone that the uniform was flight suits and nothing else would be allowed (no smurf suits).  There were no problems.  The PGA commandos either stayed home or got their training elsewhere.

That is nice of you - if they don't wear what you want them to wear, then they can find soneone else to train them.   I need to start picking uniform combos that folks don't wear and make them required so I can reduce the class sizes.   

When I attended MO training in "PGA" attire, the only comments I heard were from those wearing flight suits. They were thinking that I looked a whole lot more comfortable while sitting in the classroom.

For the record, we all successfully completed training. Apparently, the polyester encasing my torso failed to paralyze my brain cells.

[Gunner C]

Does it specify that they'll be sent home?  I'm not disagreeing with it, just don't waste someone's time and effort if uniform violations have been winked at in the past.  If the penalty is known beforehand, then they'll have no argument.

When I ran my group's aircrew course, I told everyone that the uniform was flight suits and nothing else would be allowed (no smurf suits).  There were no problems.  The PGA commandos either stayed home or got their training elsewhere.

I need to start picking uniform combos that folks don't wear and make them required so I can reduce the class sizes.   

The class was full every time with a waiting list.  Raise the bar and people will meet it every time.  We were at Pope AFB - part of our job was to sell the program to the AF.  The Pope wing commander noted CAP's professionalism each time the course was run.  These things mean something to the RM.  Since the RM gives us most of our funding, it makes sense to play their game, not yours. 

[Major Carrales]

As for being "sent home," I've tried to carry a "uniform kit" with a few items in case of these issues.  I've even considered ordering a few nametapes/nameplates saying "CADET" or "SENIOR" to be attached with double-sided tape (the type used for mounting posters) for those who's HOCK SHOP or VANGUARD order is untimely.

A few hat badges, a flight CAP or BDU cap.

However, if one is going to drive over two hours to an activity, I think they might be made to consider a quick inspection of the uniform.

Flightsuits are pricy...so is most of the material. Still, if people on CAPTALK are gonna get into "UNIFORM NATONAL SOCIALISM" as so often happens I submit that personnel should be grounded if the uniform is uncorrectable.  However, as with all things, the situation needs to be examined in a fair and objective manner.

I've seen, much like General Washington's troops as Valley Forge, CAP officers piece together a uniform ( a MAJCOM patch from one, a flight CAP or hat device from another and a leather nametag from another) at a Mission so a fellow whose order has been "back ordered" could get in their scanner quals. 


Seems to me as if some of your units are "too cosmpolitian" to understand how it works out here on the frontier.

[Gunner C]

Flightsuits are pricy...so is most of the material. Still, if people on CAPTALK are gonna get into "UNIFORM NATONAL SOCIALISM" as so often happens I submit that personnel should be grounded if the uniform is uncorrectable. 

We got a variety of zoom bags from the military disposal yard (correct name for it escapes me right now).  They were in good shape and we were able to supply the entire group with inexpensive (free) bags.

Problem now is the change in regs - fat boys can't wear the flight suit ($40 utility uniform is the best answer).

[Major Carrales]

Flightsuits are pricy...so is most of the material. Still, if people on CAPTALK are gonna get into "UNIFORM NATONAL SOCIALISM" as so often happens I submit that personnel should be grounded if the uniform is uncorrectable. 

We got a variety of zoom bags from the military disposal yard (correct name for it escapes me right now).  They were in good shape and we were able to supply the entire group with inexpensive (free) bags.

Problem now is the change in regs - fat boys can't wear the flight suit ($40 utility uniform is the best answer).

There are always, as we all know, alternatives, in CAP for unifroms.

I think the best way to salvage a discussion like this one is to create aplan for correcting the less than accepted uniform practices. 

Finding blame is only valuable if one is going to use that fact to find a solution. 

Uniform Inspections as policy prior to all deployments?  Those wishing to attend must have their uniform pass an inspection.  That is not unreasonable.

After all, in Texas, for Safety, one must be on a letter that they have all the available safety info.  Why not ask for a Uniform inspection...it can be as informal as just wearing it to the meeting an dfacing the DEVIL's ADVOCATE of the squadron and manybe some could offer assistance or even uniform items...even if just loans.

[Hawk200]

1.  Yes, a "few pounds" overweight is a trivial violation.  Considering that for that few pounds the member has to spend $100-$500 in a new set of uniforms, depending upon his level of participation.  If he looks like a big blue garbage bag, THEN it is a serious violation warranting more action than a cautionary word or mild teasing banter.

The quote I made was people trivializing their weight. Usually a statement of "I'm only a few pounds overweight" is an attempt to minimalize it so that a new uniform isn't necessary. I can understand a few pounds (which means up to ten or so in my view), but the several (which can mean mean up to twenty plus) over is what I have a problem with. Twenty, thirty pounds or more is not a "few".

If someone is in that bracket they have a decision to make: get alternate uniforms, or lose the weight. I know losing the weight isn't easy, a few years ago it took me four months to drop 20 pounds. It was low impact  stuff, but it took a while. Making the effort is what shows a desire for uniformity.

2.  Cadet without a nametag?  Is the uniform new?  Is the cadet new?  I can forgive this, considering Vanguard's level of logistic support.  I will just call him "Cadet Unknown" until he gets a nametag on.  He will.  Trust me.

One cadet I had a problem with didn't have one for almost four months. He was apparently under the impression that it was going to be ordered for him, and that he didn't have to do anything. If he wanted one ordered, all he had to do was tell someone. I spent a few dollars on new cadets getting minor insignia (an amount usually not exceeding $20), and I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But he didn't tell anyone he needed it. I would have thought he'd figure it out after a dozen times of me talking to him about it.

At meetings, I'll tolerate it for awhile. But those members don't need to be attending outside-the-unit activiities until they have an appropriate uniform together, and know how to wear it properly.

3.  Outdated uniform?  OK, that one goes home to change.  Outdated patches?  I probably won't even say anything about that, unless it is still the round flight suit patch from back in the 90's.  There are, the last time I counted, something like 3 versions of the command patch.  I have more important things to worry about than that.

Agreed on outdated uniforms. I would also apply that to improperly configured ones, such as having "CAP" on one side (BDU's). Many changes have been around for years. If you can't scrape enough change out of your car seats or your couch by then, there's an issue. There are CAP related things that need to be done on personal time, it's not limited to only being done during a meeting.

For flightsuit patches? Simple fix: order a batch of the latest patches, and keep them on hand. Flightsuit has Velcro, that's a no-brainer.

[PHall]

For flightsuit patches? Simple fix: order a batch of the latest patches, and keep them on hand. Flightsuit has Velcro, that's a no-brainer.

Ah, but we do have a number of folks out there who do not attach their patches with velcro, they sew them directly to the flight suit.

They're usually the one's who tell you you can't velcro your patches, they must be sewn on.

Haven't had one yet who can show me in the 39-1 where it says you can't use velcro.

[Hawk200]

For flightsuit patches? Simple fix: order a batch of the latest patches, and keep them on hand. Flightsuit has Velcro, that's a no-brainer.

Ah, but we do have a number of folks out there who do not attach their patches with velcro, they sew them directly to the flight suit.

They're usually the one's who tell you you can't velcro your patches, they must be sewn on.

Haven't had one yet who can show me in the 39-1 where it says you can't use velcro.

I know an old California supplement to 39-1 said that you can't Velcro them, they had to be sewn on, unless there was Velcro already on the suit. Kinda impractical, you can always just say that you got it with Velcro already.

I have three flightsuits, one has things sewn, the others have Velcro. I like the change out between squadron and the safety patch on the Velcro one every now and then, just to see if anyone is paying attention.

[MIKE]

I have three flightsuits, one has things sewn, the others have Velcro. I like the change out between squadron and the safety patch on the Velcro one every now and then, just to see if anyone is paying attention.

FYI:  Squadron patches are not authorized on zoom bags.  have to check on the safety patch, but unit patches are a no-go.

If I was gonna split this thread, where would I start?

[Spike]

The class was full every time with a waiting list.  Raise the bar and people will meet it every time.  We were at Pope AFB - part of our job was to sell the program to the AF.  The Pope wing commander noted CAP's professionalism each time the course was run.  These things mean something to the RM.  Since the RM gives us most of our funding, it makes sense to play their game, not yours.

First.....what were you "trying to sell to the AF"??

Second......if an AF Wing Commander bases his opinion on CAP Members Professionalism because of Flight Suits.....he is a terrible Officer, one I would never want to be subordinate to.

Third......requiring flight suits and only flight suits for classroom training (??) is silly.  If that was the case what is the reasoning for that?? 

Sounds to me like you may be the flight suit wearing member who probably doesn't even own any other uniform.  Great you got your group a ton of free flight suits.....but what happens when the free flights suits run out??  Make a member buy one just to get training?  That is bad leadership.

Lets all pretend every member is not wealthy.  We need to plan our events so that it costs the individual member as little as possible.

Just because your class was full does not equate it to being a good training session. 

Finally......The Real Military (RM) does not give us our funding.  It comes through the Air Force, but it is appropriated by the Federal Government from taxes and decided upon by our elected officials.  CAP asks for money through the AF channels all the way up to DOD.  The Defense Department is not the Real Military.....it is a Government Department with Civilians in charge of it. 

I also hate to say it but.... "being in flight suits" means something to the RM?  Give me a break! 

[CadetProgramGuy]

[. . .]  I had to be the bad cop.

Interesting choice of words.

In general, I don't support sending a cadet home because of relatively minor uniform violations, like a missing name tape.

The whole point of the cadet program is training - and by sending a troop home you are denying them the very essence of our program.

There are a whole lot more tools in the tool box that are more appropriate to fix this uniform violation.

It's like a cop who stopped you for a relatively minor traffic violation like going 5 over the limit on the freeway or forgetting to use your turn signals when changing lanes decided to tow you car and make you walk home.

That would be a "bad cop" because the punishment / inconvenience inflicted is wildly disproportional to offense and actually is counterproductive to the whole purpose of traffic enforcement (getting from point A to point B safely).

I would also hope the traffic cop didn't bad mouth the Chief about being too soft on traffic offenses while she wrote the ticket . . . 


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, bad job title)

Didn't send the cadet home, but I wasn the one that had to deliver the news to the cadet about being out of uniform, and what it was that he needed.  The next week he was in the corrent uniform.  Problem was that no-one told him of the alternative uniform until he got his squared away. 

My alternative uniform is Squadron shirt, blue jeans until uniforms coma in and are completed.

I also just handed over my cadet stash to the squadron to help out with missing items.

[Hawk200]

FYI:  Squadron patches are not authorized on zoom bags.  have to check on the safety patch, but unit patches are a no-go.

You'll have to prove that to me with something black and white out of the manual. And I mean a specific reference, not just "the manual says you can't". The only statement in the section on flight suits states the following:

"Optional Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on right sleeve. Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch."

Since other patches are listed as authorized, it stands to reason that it means any legitimately authorized patch (which does not mean "Give a XXXX meter" patches, etc). Any patch in good taste that CAP has should be fine. Disputing it seems like picking fly "stuff" out of pepper.

If it doesn't seem that way to many, then maybe it needs to be clarified. Unit patches on CAP uniforms are normal, disallowing it on anything other than blues would be strange. When I see someone in my wing in a green bag, a wing patch is meaningless to me. I know what wing they're from. Squadron identifiers are more important.

[BrandonKea]

FYI:  Squadron patches are not authorized on zoom bags.  have to check on the safety patch, but unit patches are a no-go.

You'll have to prove that to me with something black and white out of the manual. And I mean a specific reference, not just "the manual says you can't". The only statement in the section on flight suits states the following:

"Optional Shoulder Patch: Worn centered 1/2 inch below shoulder seam on right sleeve. Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch."

Since other patches are listed as authorized, it stands to reason that it means any legitimately authorized patch (which does not mean "Give a XXXX meter" patches, etc). Any patch in good taste that CAP has should be fine. Disputing it seems like picking fly "stuff" out of pepper.

If it doesn't seem that way to many, then maybe it needs to be clarified. Unit patches on CAP uniforms are normal, disallowing it on anything other than blues would be strange. When I see someone in my wing in a green bag, a wing patch is meaningless to me. I know what wing they're from. Squadron identifiers are more important.

You just proved MIKE's point. "Member may choose one of the authorized patches for the right shoulder, may be wing, region or National shoulder patch"

Here are the choices.

• Wing Patch
• Region Patch
• National Patch

Squadron patch is not listed, and thus, not authorized.