The Uniform Team

[A.Member]

The bottom line is many of the  sheriffs don't really need CAP ground SAR since their own teams far surpass anything CAP can put in the field and some have a limited need CAP aircraft.

I can't speak as to what occurs in CA or why and, as I mentioned previously, I suspect many of the comments on the issue are heresay or speculative at best. 

But let's assume the quote above is true - they don't need CAP.  At what cost?  Seems like many people forget the value proposition of CAP.  We provide skilled resources at a mere fraction of the cost.  That is the selling point and it shouldn't be an overly difficult sell.  We are a force multiplier - they don't need that assistance?  Many LE agencies work closely with CAP around the country on a regular basis.  I've never been to a live SAR in which it's been said, "We just don't want or need any more skilled help".  I suspect those instances would be extremely rare at best. 

I agree that "asserting our federalness" is neither a wise nor productive approach.  However, if the value of CAP is not understood in CA, then perhaps the reason for that breakdown needs to be evaluated and a new approach pursued.  Given the extremely sad fiscal condition of CA, I can't believe taxpayers would be happy to know that LE is turning away skilled, professional volunteer support at a time when budgets and resources are severely strained but, then again, perhaps that explains why CA is in the position that it is.   

[SJFedor]

I can understand why some SD's, especially in Cali, would be rather hesitant to use us.

1) We train to our CAP National Standards, which may or may not be in tune with how they train. Moreso, they probably don't know HOW it is we train, and may be hesitant to use people when they have no say/oversight as to how we're taught to do things, nor any knowledge of how we're trained.

2) We CAN do it at a fraction of the cost. I know if I was a Sheriff or Department Director, and knew that there was someone out there who could do it cheaper, I too might be hesitant to use them. Mainly for the fact that if we use the people that are cheaper then my existing paid resources, I may have just put an entire division out of a job, and might get by budget reduced.



"Asserting our federalness" is going to be met with a "take your volunteer [butts] elsewhere" response.

[Gunner C]

2) We CAN do it at a fraction of the cost. I know if I was a Sheriff or Department Director, and knew that there was someone out there who could do it cheaper, I too might be hesitant to use them. Mainly for the fact that if we use the people that are cheaper then my existing paid resources, I may have just put an entire division out of a job, and might get by budget reduced.

Which is exactly why California and several other states are in the shape they're in.  Instead of looking out for their bosses (read: taxpayer) they're looking out for their own shining castles and kingdoms.  The bosses who pay the bills should be demanding more affordable ways of doing business.

[SJFedor]

2) We CAN do it at a fraction of the cost. I know if I was a Sheriff or Department Director, and knew that there was someone out there who could do it cheaper, I too might be hesitant to use them. Mainly for the fact that if we use the people that are cheaper then my existing paid resources, I may have just put an entire division out of a job, and might get by budget reduced.

Which is exactly why California and several other states are in the shape they're in.  Instead of looking out for their bosses (read: taxpayer) they're looking out for their own shining castles and kingdoms.  The bosses who pay the bills should be demanding more affordable ways of doing business.

Oh, I fully concur. They wanna continue to call the shots in their sandbox.

[wuzafuzz]

A few thoughts on those agencies in CA that don't see a big need for CAP:

• Yes, absolutely some sheriff's are building little kingdoms.  Then they go to conferences with other sheriff's and brag about their air units, comm centers, SWAT teams, and super cool patrol car markings.  When I worked for a dept in So Cal my sheriff just about wet himself when we started the first computer forensics unit in that part of the state, AND bought a big crime scene and mobile computer forensics lab with a state grant.  However, that doesn't mean they don't always have a need for the toys they buy. 
• Once they buy those toys, they DO want to use them.  CAP does it too, use your plane or lose it.
• If a dept already has an air unit, and becomes accustomed to using those resources on a moments notice, calling CAP for certain missions simply isn't at the top of their list.  Don't forget CAP cannot fulfill many missions for LE.
• At least in CA, most Sheriff's SAR teams are volunteers.  CAP isn't any more cost effective than they are.
• Some sheriff's departments have had volunteer aero-squadrons.  Not sure if that's still the case.  You can bet a local sheriff will call his/her OWN volunteer flyers before CAP.  http://www.kernsheriff.com/Volunteer/SearchRescue/Pages/default.aspx
  

So, there are political realities CAP must face when dealing with local sheriff's departments.  We will NOT win if we spit in their eye or decide their rules don't apply to CAP.  IIRC, in CA, the sheriff is GOD when it comes to SAR.  I've heard the same about some other states.  Result, wear orange once in a while or don't bother playing.

[BrandonKea]

Mods,

Can we split this thread? It got a little OT but it's still a good discussion...

[A.Member]

• If a dept already has an air unit, and becomes accustomed to using those resources on a moments notice, calling CAP for certain missions simply isn't at the top of their list.  Don't forget CAP cannot fulfill many missions for LE.

Of course not, we're only talking SAR here (or at least I am  ).  In those cases, while we understandably may not be the first on the list, we certainly should be near the top.  If we're not, why is that?  I suspect that in most cases, the department doesn't really know anything about CAP because no one has taken the time to effectively present the organization to them (this is done at a squadron - or perhaps group level - with support from the Wing).  This, of course, further emphasizes the importance of relationship building and the consistant portrayal of a professional image.

• At least in CA, most Sheriff's SAR teams are volunteers.  CAP isn't any more cost effective than they are.
• Some sheriff's departments have had volunteer aero-squadrons.  Not sure if that's still the case.  You can bet a local sheriff will call his/her OWN volunteer flyers before CAP.  http://www.kernsheriff.com/Volunteer/SearchRescue/Pages/default.aspx
  

In your experience have those departments ever not needed more skilled assistance, especially when, say for example, trying to locate a missing person?  Every real-life SAR I've been involved with included resources from multiple agencies/organizations - paid and volunteer.  We are still a skilled force multiplier.

So, there are political realities CAP must face when dealing with local sheriff's departments.

As is there with any agency.  It doesn't mean they're insurmountable by any means.  It just means that someone has to put in a little effort to understand and build the relationship.  As an example, our unit has built a very good report with one of the local sheriff's departments.  We are invited to participate in their training exercises and they call us out on real SARs.  As a matter of fact, in the last 5 years or so, we're directly responsible for 2 real finds (missing persons) in that county.  We have proven our value to them.  In turn, they have talked us up among other agencies in which they interact.  So, it can be done.

Result, wear orange once in a while or don't bother playing.

We wear orange as well...orange vests.  Serves the same exact purpose.

[heliodoc]

Agree with A. Member

Realities of past members actions of CAP in regards with SO and Depts need to be assessed and cleaned up.  Gives them the facts and do not go promising the world.

Sheriff can be their own Johhny Rambos  we had best not EVEN attempt that.  Some Sheriff folks can see right thru and some have been RM by their own right.  So all our slick 24 and 72 hour gear may not impress them nor does the BDU uniform.  How we act and accept assignment is the key deal, not how good we look!!

Be active with the SO with some of their operations or at least the ones CAP is invited to.
All the HOOORAH stuff such as ARCHER and G1000 stuff may or may not impress them.  They have their capabilities and GEEEWHIZ equipment that may surpass CAP's.

We could be near the top of the first call list, if CAP was more visible in a WORKING environment.  Selling our wares is not as important as actions and simply accepting that we are assisting them in THEIR operation and not in charge.  We may be in charge of something.....our own people and the task we are handed by the SO

[RiverAux]

To bring this back to uniforms, the county sheriff isn't going to care that a CAP unit is wearing its normal uniform + orange vest or whatever silliness the state of CA wants them to wear.  He wants a well-trained team, which I'm confident that CA Wing can provide. 

I'm betting the local sheriffs had nothing to do with the state requirement and would probably be thrilled if it was dropped so that they could put their SAR teams in the uniform they thought was most effective for them. 

[Hawk200]

I'm betting the local sheriffs had nothing to do with the state requirement and would probably be thrilled if it was dropped so that they could put their SAR teams in the uniform they thought was most effective for them.

They probably didn't have anything to do with the adoption at all, and I think it's most likely a case of them not caring, they simply enforce as required. A county answers to the state, and is responsible for enforcing laws, regulations, directives, statutes, etc.

They probably do want the best team they can get, but to avoid any liability, they have things they have to follow.

On another note, National Guard soldiers have no "Federalness" whatsoever while in a state status, which is what most wildfire incidents are probably considered. The requirement of the Nomex field uniforms is well within the authority of the governor.

Also, the military does little in the SAR community. Their duties lie primarily in CSAR, which is a different animal, and has nothing to do with state missions. Some principles may carry over, but  not all. Equating CSAR with SAR is comparing apples and oranges.

[Ned]

On another note, National Guard soldiers have no "Federalness" whatsoever while in a state status, which is what most wildfire incidents are probably considered. The requirement of the Nomex field uniforms is well within the authority of the governor.

It probably doesn't add much to the discussion, but as a California Guard guy, I worked along side purely Federal troops (7th ID) during wildfire operations.  The Federal soldiers wore the yellow nomex wildland fire shirts just like everyone else.

Sometimes safety and common sense do triumph over uniform traditionalists.

Ned Lee
Retired Guard Guy

[RiverAux]

On another note, National Guard soldiers have no "Federalness" whatsoever while in a state status, which is what most wildfire incidents are probably considered. The requirement of the Nomex field uniforms is well within the authority of the governor.

Very true, but you can bet that if asked to do ground SAR they're going to do it in their regular uniforms becuase they are totally appropriate for ground SAR.  If they can do ground SAR in their normal uniforms because they're special enough to fall outside the requirements for normal SAR teams, I think we should be able to follow that same logic for us.   

I'm not sure why firefighting keeps getting interjected into this issue.  NOMEX keeps you from getting burned.  Fighting fires in BDUs would be insane.  No one is going to convince me that the uniform CA evidently wants worn for SAR is absolulutely necessary for the life safety of those doing the searching.  Our standard blaze orange vests are perfectly appropriate attire for this purpose.   

[PA Guy]

On another note, National Guard soldiers have no "Federalness" whatsoever while in a state status, which is what most wildfire incidents are probably considered. The requirement of the Nomex field uniforms is well within the authority of the governor.

Very true, but you can bet that if asked to do ground SAR they're going to do it in their regular uniforms becuase they are totally appropriate for ground SAR.  If they can do ground SAR in their normal uniforms because they're special enough to fall outside the requirements for normal SAR teams, I think we should be able to follow that same logic for us.     

Since this issue seems to revolve around CA.  As I said in a prev. post the CA Natl Guard doesn't do ground SAR.  So what their wardrobe would consist of is conjecture.  As an aside, ground SAR in CA is a very different animal than ground SAR in many other states due to the altitudes, terrain and weather.  The skill sets required to preform effective ground SAR in CA often exceed the training level of CAP and the NG.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Question:

Since CA sheriffs have their own volunteer airplanes, their own volunteer SAR teams on the deck, and don't want CAP to participate unless they leave the uniform of the USAF at home and wear the state uniform, and even if CAP does ditch the uniform, they aren't needed anyway because the Sheriff teams can do it better...

Then why doen't CA Wing get out of the SAR business in CA?  We can use those planes here in FL where we have hurricanes, wildfires, tornadoes, and other disasters all the time and FL is grateful for CAP's ability to rapidly scout damaged areas at low cost.

[BrandonKea]

Question:

Since CA sheriffs have their own volunteer airplanes, their own volunteer SAR teams on the deck, and don't want CAP to participate unless they leave the uniform of the USAF at home and wear the state uniform, and even if CAP does ditch the uniform, they aren't needed anyway because the Sheriff teams can do it better...

Then why doen't CA Wing get out of the SAR business in CA?  We can use those planes here in FL where we have hurricanes, wildfires, tornadoes, and other disasters all the time and FL is grateful for CAP's ability to rapidly scout damaged areas at low cost.

Aerial Recon, HLS Missions, Organ Transplant support, Cadet Orientation Flights, AFROTC and AFJROTC O Flights, Pilot Training

...still seems like lots of reasons to fly to me

[A.Member]

As an aside, ground SAR in CA is a very different animal than ground SAR in many other states due to the altitudes, terrain and weather.  The skill sets required to preform effective ground SAR in CA often exceed the training level of CAP and the NG.

You mean states such as Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico?  Sorry, I don't buy that.  Every Wing has attributes/considerations that are unique to it's locale. 

Again, my question is exactly how many of these missions are there?  I would venture to guess that a busy year for most counties might involve one - maybe two - missing persons SARs per year at best.   Certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant an entire new uniform, especially when it's only needed for a portion of the resources assigned to that mission.  Which is also probably a contributing factor as to why the proposal to wear orange shirts failed miserably at the 2007 NB. 

[PA Guy]

As an aside, ground SAR in CA is a very different animal than ground SAR in many other states due to the altitudes, terrain and weather.  The skill sets required to preform effective ground SAR in CA often exceed the training level of CAP and the NG.

You mean states such as Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico?  Sorry, I don't buy that.  Every Wing has attributes/considerations that are unique to it's locale. 

Again, my question is exactly how many of these missions are there?  I would venture to guess that a busy year for most counties might involve one - maybe two - missing persons SARs per year at best.   Certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant an entire new uniform, especially when it's only needed for a portion of the resources assigned to that mission.

No, I mean states like KS, NB, DE, NJ, CT, AL etc.  Check out http://www.sbcounty.gov/sheriff/Documentation/annual2007.pdf and scroll down to pages 8 and 9.  Approx. 200 missions/yr.  Of course that is only one county but that county covers an area of appox. 20,000 sq. miles, a sizeable chunk of SoCal.  Also check out http://www.rmru.org/about.htm Riverside Mtn Rescue covers another approx. 7,200 sq. miles adjoining the southern border of San Bdno County with 35 grnd SAR missions in 2008.  The thing that CAP grnd ops brings to this is their expertise in electronic search.  In that area they win hands down over the sheriff's teams and  most of the sheriff's teams recognize this and utilize CAP grnd teams in that capacity.

[Ned]

Again, my question is exactly how many of these missions are there?  I would venture to guess that a busy year for most counties might involve one - maybe two - missing persons SARs per year at best.   Certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant an entire new uniform, especially when it's only needed for a portion of the resources assigned to that mission.

Sometimes it is easy to forget just how big and diverse California can be.  It is the home of the largest county in the United States - San Bernadino County - which has over two million people in just over 20,000 square miles.  That's just one county with more real estate than nine states.  You could put the entire states of Rhode Island, Connecticut, Hawaii, and Delaware combined into SB co and have room left over. 

Now throw in some minor counties like Los Angeles (10 million folks in a mere 4,700 square miles) or Inyo (17,000 folks in 10,100 square miles) and you get some idea if the sizes involved.

And I know you know that California itself is the third largest state with its 36 million people crammed into 163,000 square miles.

So, yeah, they probably have a few of those folks go missing in each one of the 58 counties every year.

But feel free to do the research and let us know how many missions you find.

[wuzafuzz]

Question:

Since CA sheriffs have their own volunteer airplanes, their own volunteer SAR teams on the deck, and don't want CAP to participate unless they leave the uniform of the USAF at home and wear the state uniform, and even if CAP does ditch the uniform, they aren't needed anyway because the Sheriff teams can do it better...

Then why doen't CA Wing get out of the SAR business in CA?  We can use those planes here in FL where we have hurricanes, wildfires, tornadoes, and other disasters all the time and FL is grateful for CAP's ability to rapidly scout damaged areas at low cost.

Answer:

• Public Relations Nightmare:  "CAP Stops Helping People Due to Uniform Rules."
• CAP can contribute and provide valuable services.
• The orange shirt deal affects a small percentage of CA CAP members.  Aircrews, mission base staff, and maybe even UDF teams aren't affected.

Our uniform menagerie is a PITA, but at least the state mandate provides a reason (however unreasonable) for the CA orange shirt.  We might not like it, but that's more reason than we can claim for some of our other outfits.

[A.Member]

Again, my question is exactly how many of these missions are there?  I would venture to guess that a busy year for most counties might involve one - maybe two - missing persons SARs per year at best.   Certainly doesn't seem to be enough to warrant an entire new uniform, especially when it's only needed for a portion of the resources assigned to that mission.

Sometimes it is easy to forget just how big and diverse California can be.  It is the home of the largest county in the United States - San Bernadino County - which has over two million people in just over 20,000 square miles.  That's just one county with more real estate than nine states.  You could put the entire states of Rhode Island, Connecticut, Hawaii, and Delaware combined into SB co and have room left over. 

Now throw in some minor counties like Los Angeles (10 million folks in a mere 4,700 square miles) or Inyo (17,000 folks in 10,100 square miles) and you get some idea if the sizes involved.

And I know you know that California itself is the third largest state with its 36 million people crammed into 163,000 square miles.

So, yeah, they probably have a few of those folks go missing in each one of the 58 counties every year.

But feel free to do the research and let us know how many missions you find.

Again, I would suggest those are the exceptions, not the rule.   As you stated, CA has 58 counties.   You mention 3.   How about the other 55?   That's why I said "most counties".   A quick Google search here shows missing persons by county for 2008.  However, it's impossible to determine from this information how many of those resulted in actual SAR missions in which we could participate.  However, we might assume they would be drawn at least as a primary subset from the "Lost" and "Catastrophe" columns which had a combined total of ~300, with three counties accounting for a little over 1/3rd of that total.