Gray slacks/white shirt uniform

[billford1]

If the AF has no objection I wish we'd just get on with it and allow the CSU for all seniors. I've seen so many versions of the grays from docker's to Haggars to cargo pants all in different shades.

[flyingscotsman]

I'm part of the camp that believes that we should simplify our uniform choices down to ones that are easily obtainable, economical, and can be worn by everyone regardless of weight or grooming.

Meetings & Classroom: Blue CAP Polo / Grey Pants (although I'd love to see Khaki allowed, grey pants available anywhere)
Professional Events:  White Aviator Shirt / Grey Pants \\ (Shirt about $20-$30 at multiple online stores)
Formal Events:  Blazer / Grey Pants combo \\ (if you have the grey pants already you just need to get a blazer)
Aircrew:  Navy Blue (non-nomex / flight-suit style) Coveralls \\ (under $36 shipped on Amazon)
Ground Team:  BDU's (Woodland Camo) (Need to get the weight/grooming standard abolished for this one.)

Most of these items (except the polo and insignia) are easily obtainable outside of Vanguard, and are relatively cheap.  I'm of the opinion that we should instead get rid of all other uniforms requiring the weight/grooming standards.  That's not to say that people should be dirty and smelly, but I don't think they should have to cut their hair or beard.  Many of the people that I have encountered outside of CAP, but have had some interaction with us, seem to be confused by why everyone seems to be wearing all sorts of different stuff yet we call them "uniform."

Currently we give the visible impression of a disorganized group with all of the uniforms we wear at any given time.  We have people wearing the AF uniform that shouldn't, and some others wearing the other options (following the rules) who feel like second class members.  Wouldn't it be better for our organization to standardize on one option per situation to be more inclusive?

Sometimes I get the strong impression that we keep these AF uniforms to appease those who just want to play military for one reason or another.

[RiverAux]

Yes, lets do away with our heritage to save about $20-50 per member. 

[flyingscotsman]

And the current situation isn't doing that already? It's a mess.

[Hawk200]

I'm part of the camp that believes that we should simplify our uniform choices down to ones that are easily obtainable, economical, and can be worn by everyone regardless of weight or grooming.

Meetings & Classroom: Blue CAP Polo / Grey Pants (although I'd love to see Khaki allowed, grey pants available anywhere)
Professional Events:  White Aviator Shirt / Grey Pants \\ (Shirt about $20-$30 at multiple online stores)
Formal Events:  Blazer / Grey Pants combo \\ (if you have the grey pants already you just need to get a blazer)
Aircrew:  Navy Blue (non-nomex / flight-suit style) Coveralls \\ (under $36 shipped on Amazon)
Ground Team:  BDU's (Woodland Camo) (Need to get the weight/grooming standard abolished for this one.)

Most of these items (except the polo and insignia) are easily obtainable outside of Vanguard, and are relatively cheap.  I'm of the opinion that we should instead get rid of all other uniforms requiring the weight/grooming standards.  That's not to say that people should be dirty and smelly, but I don't think they should have to cut their hair or beard.  Many of the people that I have encountered outside of CAP, but have had some interaction with us, seem to be confused by why everyone seems to be wearing all sorts of different stuff yet we call them "uniform."

Currently we give the visible impression of a disorganized group with all of the uniforms we wear at any given time.  We have people wearing the AF uniform that shouldn't, and some others wearing the other options (following the rules) who feel like second class members.  Wouldn't it be better for our organization to standardize on one option per situation to be more inclusive?

Sometimes I get the strong impression that we keep these AF uniforms to appease those who just want to play military for one reason or another.

Many who became cadets did so because of the uniforms. Take that away, and not as many will be interested. They'll join Police or Fire Explorers instead, or something else with a uniform. A uniform means you belong to something, even if it takes a while for you to realize it's something more than just you.

As far as cheap goes, do you really want to look cheap? Fast track to shutdown there. A bunch of "almost" or "good enough" uniforms doesn't present a professional organization, no matter how competent they are.

BDU standards are not up to CAP. They're "on allowance" from the Air Force. Trying to abolish standards for them is the same kind of argument to return to blue boards. It isn't going to happen, and demanding it is senseless.

Our history is one of association with military airpower branches. We do the light work, the stuff that doesn't need Mach 2.

Do we need a dozen different uniforms? No, we don't, a couple will do. And I honestly doubt that there are people who feel second class. If they do, they shouldn't. Everyone brings something to CAP, regardless of whether they had military service or not. I've heard the idea that current and former military members don't belong in the Civil Air Patrol, along with "those military uniforms". One member felt that my service awards and decorations were "ostentatious". That kind of ignorance isn't one that teamwork is based on anymore than when those with military backgrounds think that "those civilians" can't handle the military aspects.

On another note, many of the members of this board are current or former military. It's not about "playing", we've been there. We just serve, or continue to serve, in other ways with CAP.

[Gunner C]

+1

I was over playing military years ago.     I think most people in CAP have better reasons for serving than that. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

We have too many uniforms, true.  And, from MY perspective it is NOT about the Fatties and the Fuzzies being considered "Second class" members.  (The special uniforms DO, however, lead to that perception).

For me it is about UNIFORMITY.  When our meetings look like NATO conferences, it is time to step back a bit and reconsider our positions.

I would support any one of the following options:

1.  Begging and whining to the AF to allow the clearly-marked Auxiliary variant of the the Air Force uniform to be worn be all CAP members, including the fat and the fuzzy.  Some limitation of fuzziness (The old USCG grooming standard, perhaps) would be appropriate.  The grossly too fat could not find AF uniforms to fit, anyway, so they would have to resort to golf shirts.  As would the fuzzies that could not meet the new, conservative facial hair standards.

2.  OK, Big Mother Blue says "No Way" to option 1.  Scrap the white and gray, scrap the sage green hero bags, scrap the BDU/ABU, and scrap the AF uniform altogether.  Go with Corporate-only uniforms for officers, including the TPU/CSU with modified facial-hair standards.  We then market our relation with the USAF as "... wearing a modified Air Force uniform."  Cadets still wear AF blue, even after age 18 if they can meet the height/weight standard.

Otherwise we will continue to look like a bunch of guys from different organizations.

[Slim]

We have too many uniforms, true.  And, from MY perspective it is NOT about the Fatties and the Fuzzies being considered "Second class" members.  (The special uniforms DO, however, lead to that perception).

Kach, thanks for making my point a bit more clear.

It's not that we are considered second-class, it's the perception created by the different uniform.  And our customers ask about it all the time.  "Why is his uniform different?"  "Because he doesn't meet grooming standards, he can't wear the AF style uniform."  "Oh, so he's not a full member then?"

Same thing happens within the organization.  Try being an up and coming leader to a bunch of cadets, while wearing a corporate uniform.  I spent a lot of years breaking the stereotype-among cadets-that seniors who have to wear corporate uniforms aren't good examples.  Just because they aren't "real" uniforms doesn't mean you should look like a rag-bag while wearing them.  I always took the stance that my inability to meet one standard didn't relieve me of the ability to meet the others.  Yeah, I'm overweight, but hair and mustache are well within regs.  I take the time to polish boots and shoes, starch/iron uniforms so they look respectable, make sure everything is on them correctly, etc.

Are there parts of the CSU that I'm not comfortable with?  Sure, I don't like the fact that the epaulets are the same ones Air Force officers wear.  Other than that, it's close enough that we at least look like we're all on the same team.  The only really noticeable difference is the shirt color (and the jackets when wearing service dress).  I'd have no problem wearing the gray nameplate/epaulets on it either(it would be nice to get some use out of that stuff again).

For the record, Air Force blue uniform shirts are available in larger sizes through Lighthouse Uniform (and probably other suppliers).  A member of my CGAux flotilla bought his trops and alphas from them, custom made.  And we know Vanguard has pants in larger sizes. 

It would be nice if Big Blue took the same stance with us as the Coast Guard does with it's auxiliary.  That just might happen the day a whistling hog comes out of Appalachia.  I would also support scrapping AF style uniforms for all senior members.  Think of the problems that would solve: no more trolling for salute stories, no more monstrosities like Jimmydeano described in another post, etc.

[davidsinn]

no more monstrosities like Jimmydeano described in another post, etc.

Those will, unfortunately, always exist.

[wuzafuzz]

We have too many uniforms, true.  And, from MY perspective it is NOT about the Fatties and the Fuzzies being considered "Second class" members.  (The special uniforms DO, however, lead to that perception).

For me it is about UNIFORMITY.  When our meetings look like NATO conferences, it is time to step back a bit and reconsider our positions.

I would support any one of the following options:

1.  Begging and whining to the AF to allow the clearly-marked Auxiliary variant of the the Air Force uniform to be worn be all CAP members, including the fat and the fuzzy.  Some limitation of fuzziness (The old USCG grooming standard, perhaps) would be appropriate.  The grossly too fat could not find AF uniforms to fit, anyway, so they would have to resort to golf shirts.  As would the fuzzies that could not meet the new, conservative facial hair standards.

2.  OK, Big Mother Blue says "No Way" to option 1.  Scrap the white and gray, scrap the sage green hero bags, scrap the BDU/ABU, and scrap the AF uniform altogether.  Go with Corporate-only uniforms for officers, including the TPU/CSU with modified facial-hair standards.  We then market our relation with the USAF as "... wearing a modified Air Force uniform."  Cadets still wear AF blue, even after age 18 if they can meet the height/weight standard.

Otherwise we will continue to look like a bunch of guys from different organizations.

+1     :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Strick]

Why get rid of the AF uniform for those of us who can wear it?

[MIKE]

Because the thin people uniform offends the not-thin people who can't wear it, and who are probably in the majority...

[Strick]

Good point, I will have to eat more

[Always Ready]

Getting rid of the AF uniforms isn't the answer either...by getting rid of them we would be snubbing our parent organization (which is the US Air Force in case some of you have forgotten ).

For those of you who argue that the white and grays are not a military-style uniform, think again. The fact of the matter is that the white and grays, the CSU, and the AF Blues are all 'military-style' uniforms. Take the shirts for example, they are pretty much the same except for the color. They all have epaulets, they all have two pockets, they are all button up, and they all have a collar. They all allow the wear of ribbons (which are of a military origin). The aviator shirt itself is based off of military uniforms. Back at the beginning of the aviation boom, a lot of pilots were military or prior military. It's cheaper to use what you have than it is to create something new. The other major differences between the uniforms (besides insignia...which needs to be the same IMHO) are the pant colors and the coats that go over them. How many times has the AF changed the color or the style of either of those items? I can count at least two times for each of those things. Pant color: transition from Army uniforms to AF uniforms, then they changed the shades. Coats (Service Jacket): Army uniform, old service jacket, McPeak style, new service jacket. And I'm sure there was was many more changes that I don't know about.

As much as I despise the polo, it has filled a nice niche in our organization. I would like to keep it around for those who don't want to wear 'military-style' uniforms.

What I would like to see happen is for all of the corporate uniforms to disappear with the exception of the polo. We would use AF uniforms with distinctive insignia (as distinctive as the AF wants it to be). I wouldn't want any CAP people making recommendations either. If the AF wants us to wear purple epaulets for example, then I will wear them. But CAP members shouldn't have a say in how distinctive we are. It's our privilege to wear the AF's uniforms not our right. By giving the AF more control, a lot of silly problems (like US CAP, playing musical patches, and the creation of a new uniform but no updated reg). The insignia would be distinctive enough so that everyone would wear these uniforms no matter their weight or fuzziness. If necessary, we could outlaw 'extreme' hairstyles to keep Mama Blue happy. Basically, we would hand over control of 39-1 to the AF with the understanding that the polo must stay an option and that we should be able to reasonably accommodate our members needs and wishes (read beards, weight problems, and disabilities)

For those who can't find a size big enough for the AF uniforms, the polo would be the only option. I could even be talked to into allowing gray BDU pants to be worn with the polo while in the field (meaning real ground pounding, not shuffling papers). Most of the AF uniforms can be found in some very large cuts, they just cost more or are not easily available...the internet is your friend. I've found 4X Large Regular BDUs on the internet. I'm sure there is some place that can make them even bigger.

In my opinion, by doing this, we would strengthen the ties not only within our organization, but with the Air Force.

Ok I'm done...flame away 

[sfdefender]

Keep the AF uniforms.
Keep the CSU with current grooming stds.
Dump the Grey and White.
Make khakis/khaki cargos standard for wear with the Blue Polo for our fine fuzzy friends.
As for formal events: if you want to have a beard and long hippie hair, than accept just wearing a civilian suit and tie with a CAP lapel pin.

Matt Brewer
Major, CAP

[ol'fido]

I'm not saying this will ever happen and I'm not even sure that I would want it to but I'm going to throw this out there for the dogpile.

Recently, I've been going through my old squadron's scrapbook and history materials trying to get it in some sort of coherent order and organization. And the thing I kept noticing is how neat some of the old style uniforms look and with the AF looking at adopting a "retro" style jacket here recently it got me thinking. Just a wild hair to be sure but....

Drop the gray/whites and the TPU/CSU/whatever and go to the old 1505 khakis with the long and short sleeve shirt and the old 4 pocket service coat in the same shade with the regular flight and bus driver hats. Use metal rank and CAP cutouts on the shirts and the coat and keep the black leather flight jackets but also authorize the navy blue nylon jackets. Use old Navy/USCG regs for facial hair and allow a certain amount of paunch for us "hmmmph" bigger people.

For the rest retain the golf shirt with khaki trousers or khaki cargo pants used with the plain desert tan BDUs which would become the utility uniform along with the desert boots or black (your choice). For you flying types, the plain tan desert bag would be the option.  

Go to the navy blue name and CIVIL AIR PATROL tapes as well as the sew on ranks and cutouts. Keep the blue plastic TPU name tags for the dress uniforms and pretty much stay with all our other insignia.  If this is really stupid or already been suggested elsewhere, you may all pile on.

[notaNCO forever]

I'm not saying this will ever happen and I'm not even sure that I would want it to but I'm going to throw this out there for the dogpile.

Recently, I've been going through my old squadron's scrapbook and history materials trying to get it in some sort of coherent order and organization. And the thing I kept noticing is how neat some of the old style uniforms look and with the AF looking at adopting a "retro" style jacket here recently it got me thinking. Just a wild hair to be sure but....

Drop the gray/whites and the TPU/CSU/whatever and go to the old 1505 khakis with the long and short sleeve shirt and the old 4 pocket service coat in the same shade with the regular flight and bus driver hats. Use metal rank and CAP cutouts on the shirts and the coat and keep the black leather flight jackets but also authorize the navy blue nylon jackets. Use old Navy/USCG regs for facial hair and allow a certain amount of paunch for us "hmmmph" bigger people.

For the rest retain the golf shirt with khaki trousers or khaki cargo pants used with the plain desert tan BDUs which would become the utility uniform along with the desert boots or black (your choice). For you flying types, the plain tan desert bag would be the option.  

Go to the navy blue name and CIVIL AIR PATROL tapes as well as the sew on ranks and cutouts. Keep the blue plastic TPU name tags for the dress uniforms and pretty much stay with all our other insignia.  If this is really stupid or already been suggested elsewhere, you may all pile on.

That's certainly an interesting. I don't know what I think of it yet. You should at least get a gold star for thinking outside the box.

[Al Sayre]

FWIW, the USAF personnel aren't a whole lot more uniform than we are.

Last Friday I took a little drive to a nearby AFB MCSS.  It was kind of busy, about 30 people in and out of  the store while I was there, but I did notice the non-uniformity of the uniforms.
BDU's with goretex
BDU's with old style BDU coat
BDU's with all weather coat
ABU's with green boots (and BDU goretex)
ABU's with black boots
ABU's with ABU goretex and green boots
Service Blues with: dress coat & tie, light weight jacket, all-weather coat, and a plastic cheapie poncho...
Flight suits with: black boots, green boots, nomex flight jacket, leather flight jacket, goretex
About 6 guys in various types of PT gear and a couple of maintenance guys in coveralls.

Fact is, the only uniform group in the whole store was me and the two employees in civvies...

[Hawk200]

I'm not saying this will ever happen and I'm not even sure that I would want it to but I'm going to throw this out there for the dogpile.

Recently, I've been going through my old squadron's scrapbook and history materials trying to get it in some sort of coherent order and organization. And the thing I kept noticing is how neat some of the old style uniforms look and with the AF looking at adopting a "retro" style jacket here recently it got me thinking. Just a wild hair to be sure but....

Drop the gray/whites and the TPU/CSU/whatever and go to the old 1505 khakis with the long and short sleeve shirt and the old 4 pocket service coat in the same shade with the regular flight and bus driver hats. Use metal rank and CAP cutouts on the shirts and the coat and keep the black leather flight jackets but also authorize the navy blue nylon jackets. Use old Navy/USCG regs for facial hair and allow a certain amount of paunch for us "hmmmph" bigger people.

For the rest retain the golf shirt with khaki trousers or khaki cargo pants used with the plain desert tan BDUs which would become the utility uniform along with the desert boots or black (your choice). For you flying types, the plain tan desert bag would be the option.  

Go to the navy blue name and CIVIL AIR PATROL tapes as well as the sew on ranks and cutouts. Keep the blue plastic TPU name tags for the dress uniforms and pretty much stay with all our other insignia.  If this is really stupid or already been suggested elsewhere, you may all pile on.

That's certainly an interesting. I don't know what I think of it yet. You should at least get a gold star for thinking outside the box.

Actually, it's been considered before. Here's a good reason why we can't really consider it now: U.S. Navy Test uniform.

We attempt khaki, and we will look completely schizophrenic. Although we came out with our CSU first, we're gonna have some troubles with military personnel assuming that it's a soldier in an improper uniform. I know, we had it first. But there's still gonna be issues.

As to some of your other ideas, they're good ones. Cargo pants with the polo I like, even in polos it's nice to have places to put things.

Don't know about tan BDU's. I've seen some, and although they look OK, don't know about it. Tan flightsuit I'd definitely recommend against (even though I think it looks decent) for the simple fact that even used ones can be spendy. I can buy four or five used sage in excellent condition for the same price as a tan one. Good idea, but could cost a bit.

We have had the same nametags for years before the TPU came around, and we could really stand to reduce the number. But the basic ones as worn on blues, and the current white/grey combo are what we really need to hang onto. They tell both who and what we are.

Leather jackets I'd keep, but I wouldn't agree with nylon jackets for wear with service uniforms. Nylon is just not fitting for such formal attire.

Navy blue tapes? You got my vote (I'll figure out a way to vote several times under different names, if I can  ).

Some good ideas, but a few aren't practical. I wouldn't mind seeing the good ones adopted.

[Hawk200]

FWIW, the USAF personnel aren't a whole lot more uniform than we are.

I would disagree highly with that.

BDU's with goretex

We have that, plus a blue one that allows suitable civilian attire. Two options to one, different looking uniforms.

BDU's with old style BDU coat

We have that, too, plus a blue one with field jacket option. Although it's not a different uniform, just a different outergarment.

BDU's with all weather coat

Legal with our woodland BDU's, and based on what I just read, not authorized with the blue BDU. Again, not a different uniform, but different outergarments.

ABU's with green boots (and BDU goretex)

Permitted, indicates that the APECS has not been completely fielded yet. Once we begin ABU transition, we would have three different variations of utility uniforms. And that's not including the blue jumpsuit.

ABU's with black boots

Permitted for maintenance personnel, personally not sure why. The Air Force could have gone with the tan, and it looks fine. The leather turns tan after a while anyway.

ABU's with ABU goretex and green boots

The standard ABU, as it should be worn. When we transition, this will be the standard for us as well.

Service Blues with: dress coat & tie, light weight jacket, all-weather coat, and a plastic cheapie poncho...

Not really different uniforms. We have three variations on the same theme: blues, blue/white, grey/white. Don't know about the poncho, I wouldn't do it. That's what the all weather coat is for.

Flight suits with: black boots, green boots, nomex flight jacket, leather flight jacket, goretex

Still the same uniform, but three different outergarments. The Gore Tex wouldn't be authorized for flying, and I don't see why anyone would wear it with a flightsuit. But it is authorized.

About 6 guys in various types of PT gear and a couple of maintenance guys in coveralls.

Same thing as the others, PT's are PT's, they were just different outergarments. As for coveralls, I'd figure civilian mechanics. The coverall is not permitted as an outer uniform garment for Air Force personnel, or at least it didn't used to be.

All in all, you only saw five uniforms, each one with a different function. With one uniform we don't have, there are nine variations. If we added PT's, and included ABU transition, we'd be talking about 11. We are far from uniform when multiple variations of the same theme (such as woodland BDU vs. Blue BDU, or blues vs. blue/white vs. grey/white) are available.

Fact is, the only uniform group in the whole store was me and the two employees in civvies...

Now you weren't really uniform if you were wearing civvies, unless you were all wearing the same thing.