Gray slacks/white shirt uniform

[davedove]

Regarding the grooming standards...

Do we really have that many people with long hair and untrimmed beards?  In all honesty I can't even remember the last time I saw a CAP member with one.  Maybe it's just where I live, but beards and men with ponytails aren't that prevalent. 

Are we arguing over something that is actually of high value, or is this another pregnant, unwed cadet thing where we'd be creating a policy that would only pertain to .00005% of our members?

I have seen a few members with beards, myself included, but I can honestly say I have never seen any of the members of ZZ Top in a CAP uniform.   All of the beards I have seen have been reasonably trimmed.

There may be a few out there who would push the boundaries on grooming, but their numbers will be VERY small.

[SaBeR33]

I have seen a few members with beards, myself included, but I can honestly say I have never seen any of the members of ZZ Top in a CAP uniform.  

"The girls go crazy about a sharped dressed man." 

ZZ Top

[davedove]

Here's my thoughts on the CSU:

1.  It is a corporate uniform.
2.  As a corporate uniform, it should be available for wear by the ENTIRE membership.
3.  The membership is open to everyone, with no restriction on weight or grooming.  (Whether you think this is good or not is another debate.)
4.  The CSU should be available to ALL members, regardless of weight or grooming.

Until the time it is open to ALL members, we still need the grey/white uniform for those who don't meet grooming standards.

[dwb]

but I can honestly say I have never seen any of the members of ZZ Top in a CAP uniform.  

I have.  Once.  Back when senior members with beards could wear BDUs with no rank insignia, I saw a dude that looked like Santa Claus: jolly, old, and with a huge white beard.  And wearing BDUs.  On an Army post.

[stratoflyer]

I'd like to see this guy in the corporate grey's getting out of an airplane after a successful SAR sortie and then swamped by media types:



That's Chris Adler for those of you who don't know drummers.

[Chappie]

I have never been a fan of the corporate military-style uniform.  It is a costly item.  My preference is to keep the White/Gray combo and ditch the airline/naval looking uniform.  Since we have deal with the aux on/off issues...the corporate uniform should be with a blazer and not a military look  when we are the CAP Corporate member and wear the USAF-style approved uniforms when  tasked by the USAF (IMHO).

[wuzafuzz]

Voted yes, with the caveat to bring the same grooming rules to the CSU.  Would also be OK with letting the CSU die out instead. 

[capchiro]

After checking, I find the blue slacks are $55-60 bucks at Vanguard and gray slacks can be purchased at Wal-Mart or K-Mart for $20.00  and they don't require dry cleaning.  Stay with the gray slacks and get over it..

[Eclipse]

Here's my thoughts on the CSU:

1.  It is a corporate uniform.
2.  As a corporate uniform, it should be available for wear by the ENTIRE membership.
3.  The membership is open to everyone, with no restriction on weight or grooming.  (Whether you think this is good or not is another debate.)
4.  The CSU should be available to ALL members, regardless of weight or grooming.

Until the time it is open to ALL members, we still need the grey/white uniform for those who don't meet grooming standards.

For clarification, its a corporate uniform of a military auxiliary.  The corporate verbiage gives us some apparent wiggle room on listening to our parents, but doesn't change who we are.

There are similar organizations with far more tenuous connections to their parent service that don't have this option at all.
You wear the uniform, you see the barber.

And before the fuzzies get all upset, I'm not advocating this, specifically, only pointing out the reality.  The question should be asked, though, how many members would we really lose if this became the norm?  I'd say not that many because most would just get a haircut and a shave vs. leaving CAP. (I said most, not all)

The ones with medical situations are a non-issue, get a Dr's note.

[Gunner C]

Here's my thoughts on the CSU:

1.  It is a corporate uniform.
2.  As a corporate uniform, it should be available for wear by the ENTIRE membership.
3.  The membership is open to everyone, with no restriction on weight or grooming.  (Whether you think this is good or not is another debate.)
4.  The CSU should be available to ALL members, regardless of weight or grooming.

Until the time it is open to ALL members, we still need the grey/white uniform for those who don't meet grooming standards.

For clarification, its a corporate uniform of a military auxiliary.  The corporate verbiage gives us some apparent wiggle room on listening to our parents, but doesn't change who we are.

There are similar organizations with far more tenuous connections to their parent service that don't have this option at all.
You wear the uniform, you see the barber.

And before the fuzzies get all upset, I'm not advocating this, specifically, only pointing out the reality.  The question should be asked, though, how many members would we really lose if this became the norm?  I'd say not that many because most would just get a haircut and a shave vs. leaving CAP. (I said most, not all)

The ones with medical situations are a non-issue, get a Dr's note.

I think the vast majority would stay.  You're right, the folks with pseudofolliculitis barbae could be accomodated easily (a small number will have this problem).

[Hawk200]

I don't see why beards should be disallowed. It doesn't affect how they do the job. People will eventually put it together that it's for those that cannot wear blues. If not, they'll ask.

If I had a problem with shaving, I'd deal with that and wear an alternate. We're not Air Force lite (there's really no such thing), we don't need to duplicate the Active, Reserve and Guard Air Force.

[Always Ready]

^Agreed.

Having a beard does not effect anything we do. Being out of shape (not overweight) could however (read real ground team stuff, not just UDF ramp checks). I can't think of a single time that having a beard or not would be beneficial or not beneficial in anything we do in CAP. I can, however, think of numerous occasions where I have had to carry someone's stuff while doing some ground pounding because they were out of shape. I've seen people who were overweight out last me in the field too...so weight is not an issue either IMHO. Being physically fit to do the job would be the only issue that could effect something that we do in CAP. It does not effect everything we do, just certain activities. Obviously, if you plan on sitting at a desk shuffling papers for the duration of your CAP career, you don't need to carry a 50 lb load for X miles or whatever. YMMV

BTW-I am clean shaven 99% of the time and I am underweight. I generally wear AF style uniforms. It's not just the overweight and the hairy that have this opinion. </rant>

[Eclipse]

Having a beard does not effect anything we do.

Image is everything.

By your argument there's very little reason to wear any uniform at all.  Just come as you are and "git 'er done".

We're more than a bunch of vigilante SAR guys.  We're a paramilitary auxiliary of a military branch.  The majority of our funding, resources, and operational role comes either directly or indirectly through big brother blue.

With that comes the responsibility to look professional and uniform.

You only have to look at the vast majority of similar services, PD/FD/Military/EMS/SAR/NSCC/ACA/Young Marines/ROTC, etc.,  both professional and volunteer, to see where the consensus on this is.

Organized services that allow for anything other than clean shaven (w/ mustache) and short hair are definitely the minority in this equation.

[SarDragon]

Having a beard does not effect anything we do.

Image is everything.

Sort of. Which looks worse, clean shaven, and wearing an unkempt uniform, or a neatly trimmed beard and an NCC level uniform?

Organized services that allow for anything other than clean shaven (w/ mustache) and short hair are definitely the minority in this equation.

The organized services have many more operational reasons for banning beards than does CAP. I was in the Navy when their beards went away,  The primary reason was operational - the inability for breathing apparatus to fully seal on the face. This included OBAs, chemical respirators, and other similar devices. A secondary aspect was appearance issues with the 18-25 yo guys growing facial that ended up being several unconnected patches of hair that looked horrible.

Here are three pictures of me, from varying eras:

1980, WIWOAD



1999, when I first rejoined CAP. I got rid of the long locks shortly thereafter. It wasn't "required", but in a composite sq, I thought it best to set a good example.



2003; today it's almost totally white



If it came to a shave or out decision, I'm gone, and it will be CAP's loss. I've left twice in the past over facial hair issues, and the decision was easy both times.

I think the uniforms we have today are adequate, and losing the TPU would cause me no sorrow, on several counts. If I need to "dress up", I throw on my blazer, and do my thing.  I've spent over 40 years of my life in some sort of uniform, have seen many changes, and just go with the flow these days. If I see an incorrect uniform, I will point it out in a tactful manner, and if I goof and get caught, I welcome the correction.

[Hawk200]

Having a beard does not effect anything we do.

Image is everything.

There was a very well known Surgeon General that wore one for years. I don't think there were many people that discounted anything he said because of his beard. I think neatly trimmed, even specify a length for appropriateness would be acceptable.

That argument fails. Image is being neat and clean, and being properly groomed. Want to test it? Send two people to a job, one in a sloppy suit, the other well groomed in khaki's and polo. Wanna take bets on who gets the job?

By your argument there's very little reason to wear any uniform at all.  Just come as you are and "git 'er done".

Wrong. I am advocating an alternate uniform. As mentioned above, it doesn't affect the mission, unless you want it to.

That argument also fails.

We're more than a bunch of vigilante SAR guys.  We're a paramilitary auxiliary of a military branch.  The majority of our funding, resources, and operational role comes either directly or indirectly through big brother blue.

With that comes the responsibility to look professional and uniform.

That's a given, but it's not an argument. In case you forgot, the Air Force permits our alternate uniforms. With their allowance, we have more assets available.

Not really an argument, but if intended as one, it also fails.

You only have to look at the vast majority of similar services, PD/FD/Military/EMS/SAR/NSCC/ACA/Young Marines/ROTC, etc.,  both professional and volunteer, to see where the consensus on this is.

All completely different missions than CAP. We are not equivalent to any one of them. There is the flexibility to permit some of our members to wear facial hair.

Another strike.

Organized services that allow for anything other than clean shaven (w/ mustache) and short hair are definitely the minority in this equation.

OK. So what? Different missions. It's not an equation that the whole of CAP is part of.

If you don't like beards or long hair, say so. I had the same issue after my first few years in the military. I also realized that I was being a fool. That person didn't have a problem, I did. I have since rethought that stand. Discounting someones abilities because of beards or long hair is foolish.

I think uniformity would be better served by eliminating the white/greys, and permitting beards with CSU. It also allows those in them to display decorations and qualifications. We have a set of blue BDU's that look fine with beards. No reason that those folks shouldn't be allowed to dress up.

[cap235629]

If you don't like beards or long hair, say so. I had the same issue after my first few years in the military. I also realized that I was being a fool. That person didn't have a problem, I did. I have since rethought that stand. Discounting someones abilities because of beards or long hair is foolish.

One might also add that discounting someones abilities because of the size of their waistline is foolish as well.  Some of the best Incident Commanders I have ever seen could NEVER meet CAP's weight standards for the wear of the AF style uniform, another reason to have an alternative uniform.  I just think we should modify the CSU to use the same slides and nametags and do away with the blazer/gray slacks and allow khaki pants with the polo.

[Eclipse]

Organized services that allow for anything other than clean shaven (w/ mustache) and short hair are definitely the minority in this equation.

OK. So what? Different missions. It's not an equation that the whole of CAP is part of.

First, you're incorrect on this point, and since its the basis of the rest of your arguments above, etc., etc.
CAP is, in fact, a part of the greater ES and military community and this is increasing every day.  If you want to make the argument that the CP isn't a part of that community, well, epic fail because seniors involved in the CP need to set a higher example for the cadets, and the cadets have a single set of grooming standards.

Please stop making the argument that this has anything to do with discounting abilities.  This is about setting a standard and sticking with it, something CAP is very poor at doing.  In fact, any organization that sets its standards based on the minority of membership, or 1% variances is making a mistake.

Those of you who choose to wear a beard, long hair, pony tail, etc., are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice.  It doesn't matter what that statement is, its a statement.

Further, I'd be willing to guess you'd agree that the inverse argument to the "discounting my abilities" nonsense - namely "the only reason you're a good 'x' is because of the beard..." are just as silly.

The issue here is where CAP is willing to take the hit - their external image to the community they serve in being less uniform in appearance and externally tailored as we could be, or the attrition of those members who would be insulted if their wearing a uniform required them to change their appearance.

Up until now and barring a change its the former.

[Hawk200]

If you don't like beards or long hair, say so. I had the same issue after my first few years in the military. I also realized that I was being a fool. That person didn't have a problem, I did. I have since rethought that stand. Discounting someones abilities because of beards or long hair is foolish.

One might also add that discounting someones abilities because of the size of their waistline is foolish as well.  Some of the best Incident Commanders I have ever seen could NEVER meet CAP's weight standards for the wear of the AF style uniform, another reason to have an alternative uniform.  I just think we should modify the CSU to use the same slides and nametags and do away with the blazer/gray slacks and allow khaki pants with the polo.

I see the point, but I personally have never  had a problem with people that are overweight. I won't treat someone 5'10" that weighs 200 poinds any different than someone 5'10" that weighs 400. I may think that the 400 pounder needs to take better care of themself, but it won't affect how I think of them personally. As far as our uniforms go, weight is a non issue. Overweight members can wear the CSU. The "fuzzies" aren't permitted it at present.

We have too many uniforms. Lose some of the excesses. CSU's look a lot closer to blues than the blazer combo does, so we're a lot more alike than different.

[Hawk200]

Organized services that allow for anything other than clean shaven (w/ mustache) and short hair are definitely the minority in this equation.

OK. So what? Different missions. It's not an equation that the whole of CAP is part of.

First, you're incorrect on this point, and since its the basis of the rest of your arguments above, etc., etc.
CAP is, in fact, a part of the greater ES and military community and this is increasing every day.  If you want to make the argument that the CP isn't a part of that community, well, epic fail because seniors involved in the CP need to set a higher example for the cadets, and the cadets have a single set of grooming standards.

Please stop making the argument that this has anything to do with discounting abilities.  This is about setting a standard and sticking with it, something CAP is very poor at doing.  In fact, any organization that sets its standards based on the minority of membership, or 1% variances is making a mistake.

Those of you who choose to wear a beard, long hair, pony tail, etc., are doing so because it makes a statement about who you are that you want the public to notice.  It doesn't matter what that statement is, its a statement.

Read the whole thing next time. You even quoted where I said "It's not an equation that the whole of CAP is part of". It's not. Parts of CAP are.

On another note, I find it offensive that you consider it a bad example to cadets for someone to have a beard. Kinda makes me want to grow one when I get home. Call it an epic fail if you want, you're the one showing disdain for those with facial hair. BTW, that's called "discrimination".

As to the "1%", for someone that demands cites and references, you better start coughing some up. There's four bearded members in my unit alone, several dozen at wing, and equivalent numbers in other units. Not sure where you get 1%.

You state it as not discounting abilities. What is it then? Image? People will discount us based on "image" instead of ability? Explain that to me.

Further, I'd be willing to guess you'd agree that the inverse argument to the "discounting my abilities" nonsense - namely "the only reason you're a good 'x' is because of the beard..." are just as silly.

Saying someone is good because of is silly, I would agree on that. Still you apparently feel that bearded long hair members are somehow "bad mojo" for CAP. I don't get. Not sure if I even want to.

The issue here is where CAP is willing to take the hit - their external image to the community they serve in being less uniform in appearance and externally tailored as we could be, or the attrition of those members who would be insulted if their wearing a uniform required them to change their appearance.

Up until now and barring a change its the former.

Less uniform in appearance? So our myriad combinations are less uniform because of beards? Tell you what: Why don't you bow out, along with your shame of CAP. I know a few folks with beards that I'd rather have around.

[Chappie]

Here is an interesting perspective that I just received from a CAP member....what about the member that does not want to wear a corporate military-looking uniform?   Is the choice to wear either the USAF-style uniform or the Corporate military looking uniform or say forget about it???