Gray slacks/white shirt uniform

[Eclipse]

Keep the AF uniforms.
Keep the CSU with current grooming stds.
Dump the Grey and White.
Make khakis/khaki cargos standard for wear with the Blue Polo for our fine fuzzy friends.
As for formal events: if you want to have a beard and long hippie hair, than accept just wearing a civilian suit and tie with a CAP lapel pin.

Matt Brewer
Major, CAP

Where do I sign?

[SarDragon]

ABU's with black boots

Permitted for maintenance personnel, personally not sure why. The Air Force could have gone with the tan, and it looks fine. The leather turns tan after a while anyway.

Doing maintenance around greasy things really wrecks any leather footwear, and it's even more noticeable on lighter-than-black suede items.

I spent a few years working on airplanes in the Canoe Club, and I can't imagine what I would have done to suede boots. MIL-H-5606, MIL-PRF-83282 (Formerly MIL-H-83282), MIL-L-23699, and other lubricating fluids do a real trick on footwear.

[Hawk200]

ABU's with black boots

Permitted for maintenance personnel, personally not sure why. The Air Force could have gone with the tan, and it looks fine. The leather turns tan after a while anyway.

Doing maintenance around greasy things really wrecks any leather footwear, and it's even more noticeable on lighter-than-black suede items.

I spent a few years working on airplanes in the Canoe Club, and I can't imagine what I would have done to suede boots. MIL-H-5606, MIL-PRF-83282 (Formerly MIL-H-83282), MIL-L-23699, and other lubricating fluids do a real trick on footwear.

Never really had a problem with the same fluids, but then I've never dumped them where they've completely covered the boot either. Tan is more readily available, and it looks better than green leather.

[Short Field]

Getting rid of the AF uniforms isn't the answer either...by getting rid of them we would be snubbing our parent organization (which is the US Air Force in case some of you have forgotten ).

What makes you think they would care???  Over 99.8% of the Air Force would never even know. 

[Always Ready]

Getting rid of the AF uniforms isn't the answer either...by getting rid of them we would be snubbing our parent organization (which is the US Air Force in case some of you have forgotten ).

What makes you think they would care???  Over 99.8% of the Air Force would never even know. 

I know that. Let me clarify a little bit. Our whole identity (prior to recently) and heritage was formed from the Army Air Corps and the AF. By getting rid of the AF uniforms, we get rid of the one thing that ties us to them and to all of the people who have served before us.

If we get rid of the AF uniforms, what would we have that ties us to our heritage??? Hmm, we've already taken the fact that we are the AF Auxiliary off of our majcom patch. The CSU nameplate says nothing about the AF Auxiliary either. Our new marketing logo doesn't mention the AF Auxiliary. Minus the gray nameplate, there is nothing on any of my uniforms that mentions our connection to the AF...besides the uniforms themselves (with the exception of one of my uniforms the BBDU).

This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of the BBDU. I sometimes wear it and every time I do I get accused of being a part of a Naval or Coastie entity, not an Air Force entity. Walk on any base wearing Blues and people will think you are in the AF. Even as a cadet, AF members would ask why I was wearing funny rank or what I do in the AF. This was on an active duty AF base too.

Honestly, I don't like this rift that has been created between us and the AF. I am honored to serve in Civil Air Patrol - the US Air Force Auxiliary. I am grateful for everything that this organization has done for me but I am even more grateful for the opportunities that the Air Force has given me through this organization. Things that I wouldn't ever be able to do if we were under DHS.

[davedove]

...
Keep the CSU with current grooming stds.
...
Make khakis/khaki cargos standard for wear with the Blue Polo for our fine fuzzy friends.
As for formal events: if you want to have a beard and long hippie hair, than accept just wearing a civilian suit and tie with a CAP lapel pin.
...

I still have a hard time understanding how someone who is massively overweight can somehow look more professional and wear the uniform just because he shaves, than can someone who is superfit but happens to wear a neatly trimmed beard.  With the current CSU grooming standards, that is exactly what we are saying.

Note, it's been a long time since I could be considered superfit, if ever.

[SaBeR33]

...
Keep the CSU with current grooming stds.
...
Make khakis/khaki cargos standard for wear with the Blue Polo for our fine fuzzy friends.
As for formal events: if you want to have a beard and long hippie hair, than accept just wearing a civilian suit and tie with a CAP lapel pin.
...

I still have a hard time understanding how someone who is massively overweight can somehow look more professional and wear the uniform just because he shaves, than can someone who is superfit but happens to wear a neatly trimmed beard.  With the current CSU grooming standards, that is exactly what we are saying.

Note, it's been a long time since I could be considered superfit, if ever.

Exactly, Dave. Maintaining the grooming standards for wearing the CSU would make no sense considering if someone is...say for instance...6ft. tall and 300lbs. Supposedly, he would still look professional just because he shaves. That makes no sense to me. I would rather see the CSU go away first as I've never been a fan of seeing overweight people be allowed to wear a uniform that looks too similar to the AF uniform. I saw enough overweight Airmen in uniform while on AD than I ever cared to to have CAP add to that in the eyes of the public. At least make the epaulets on the CSU gray to help distinguish those members choosing to wear this uniform from being potentially identified as AF members.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Getting rid of the AF uniforms isn't the answer either...by getting rid of them we would be snubbing our parent organization (which is the US Air Force in case some of you have forgotten ).

What makes you think they would care???  Over 99.8% of the Air Force would never even know. 

I know that. Let me clarify a little bit. Our whole identity (prior to recently) and heritage was formed from the Army Air Corps and the AF. By getting rid of the AF uniforms, we get rid of the one thing that ties us to them and to all of the people who have served before us.

If we get rid of the AF uniforms, what would we have that ties us to our heritage??? Hmm, we've already taken the fact that we are the AF Auxiliary off of our majcom patch. The CSU nameplate says nothing about the AF Auxiliary either. Our new marketing logo doesn't mention the AF Auxiliary. Minus the gray nameplate, there is nothing on any of my uniforms that mentions our connection to the AF...besides the uniforms themselves (with the exception of one of my uniforms the BBDU).

This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of the BBDU. I sometimes wear it and every time I do I get accused of being a part of a Naval or Coastie entity, not an Air Force entity. Walk on any base wearing Blues and people will think you are in the AF. Even as a cadet, AF members would ask why I was wearing funny rank or what I do in the AF. This was on an active duty AF base too.

Honestly, I don't like this rift that has been created between us and the AF. I am honored to serve in Civil Air Patrol - the US Air Force Auxiliary. I am grateful for everything that this organization has done for me but I am even more grateful for the opportunities that the Air Force has given me through this organization. Things that I wouldn't ever be able to do if we were under DHS.

I understand and agree with all of your points.  But the problem remains... we have too many uniforms.  When CAP members get together, we look like a cluster of people from different organizations.  

Plus, a few of us do not seem to have the required number of functioning brain cells to understand the rules, and there is confusion and mixing of uniforms.  Especially when we have one uniform for "Fat and Fuzzy," another for "Fat but NOT Fuzzy," and yet a third for "Neither Fat nor Fuzzy."

There are only two options that I can see:

1.  Get the AF to adopt the USCG Aux standards for us in the AF uniform, or

2.  Get everybody into the CSU/TPU/BBDU/etc mode.  At least the CSU/TPU looks a little air force-ish.  The white and gray screams "Mall security guard."

Option 1 has about as much chance as a fart in a hurricane.  That leaves us with Option 2 or the status quo.

[wuzafuzz]

I used to be a mall security guard and our uniforms looked much better than the grey and white.  Not only that, but we only had one uniform combo!  We must have had our act together more than I thought, at least on the fashion front      If only CAP could do the same.

[Nathan]

What would connect is to the USAF if we got rid of the Air Force uniform?

1) Rank structure
2) Missions
3) Regulations
4) Typical CAP culture
5) CSU (still looks pretty Air Forcey)
6) Order of authority
7) Benefits and funding
8) Cadet program
9) Training
10) AE and aerospace technology
11) USAF Aux still pasted on everything, including nametags and ID cards
12) etc...

I don't understand why some members question our ability to run our organization as normal while not wearing a uniform that represents history and heritage that isn't even ours.

[Bluelakes 13]

I don't understand why some members question our ability to run our organization as normal while not wearing a uniform that represents history and heritage that isn't even ours.

:clap:

[Eclipse]

I don't understand why some members question our ability to run our organization as normal while not wearing a uniform that represents history and heritage that isn't even ours.

Wait, are you, as a triple-diamond, seriously suggesting we don't share USAF heritage?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I don't understand why some members question our ability to run our organization as normal while not wearing a uniform that represents history and heritage that isn't even ours.

Wait, are you, as a triple-diamond, seriously suggesting we don't share USAF heritage?

That's what it reads a little like, Eclipse. And let's get over the "triple-diamond" thing. Spaatz kids put their pants on the same way everyone else does. (I know -- I came as close as one can possibly come without reaching the third diamond -- one question too many wrong on only one test on the second retest.)

The "USAF Auxiliary" mark has been taken off a bunch of things. Not only are we no longer the full-time auxiliary, but we have to strip ourselves of that moniker to satisfy Posse Comitatus. (Not that the sitting Commander In Chief has any worries about Posse Comitatus, but....).

The Army Air Forces/Air Force uniform has been part of CAP since the beginning. It's part of our heritage, shared with the mother service. It's one thing that holds the cadet program close to the Air Force. Without the discipline required of the Air Force uniform, a discpline that includes the rank/grade structure, the cadet program might as well be an aviation explorers or aviation scout society.

CAP is different. It's a two-headed organization -- half is military, the other half a 501(c)3. Let's not forget that. Our uniforms reflect that, as well. Some wear the military uniform. Some don't. It doesn't make anyone second-class, so get over it.

My beef is with the CSU, not that we have an alternate uniform for those who can't/won't wear the Air Force uniforms. If top leaders won't follow their own policies (and they didn't when the CSU was enacted and was technically dead after the ICL expired), why should we?  We pound this into cadets, then do the exact opposite: Leadership by example.

[Always Ready]

^+1

I don't understand why some members question our ability to run our organization as normal while not wearing a uniform that represents history and heritage that isn't even ours.

Wait, are you, as a triple-diamond, seriously suggesting we don't share USAF heritage?

^+1 

I understand and agree with all of your points.  But the problem remains... we have too many uniforms.  When CAP members get together, we look like a cluster of people from different organizations.  

Plus, a few of us do not seem to have the required number of functioning brain cells to understand the rules, and there is confusion and mixing of uniforms.  Especially when we have one uniform for "Fat and Fuzzy," another for "Fat but NOT Fuzzy," and yet a third for "Neither Fat nor Fuzzy."

There are only two options that I can see:

1.  Get the AF to adopt the USCG Aux standards for us in the AF uniform, or

2.  Get everybody into the CSU/TPU/BBDU/etc mode.  At least the CSU/TPU looks a little air force-ish.  The white and gray screams "Mall security guard."

Option 1 has about as much chance as a fart in a hurricane.  That leaves us with Option 2 or the status quo.

And I agree and understand with all of your points...which means I have to digress from my argument a little. We all need to be in one uniform and if it means going to the CSU then so be it. But I don't want this to be another act of we, as the Air Force Auxiliary, distancing ourselves from the USAF or the USAF distancing themselves from us.

If we were to switch to the CSU or any other single uniform for all, the AF leadership and CAP leadership need to stress to everyone that this is an act of building esprit de corps, not a fashion statement (like the TPU was/is perceived) or perceived as a punishment from the AF like the maroon and now gray epaulet loops.

[Nathan]

What I am saying is that CAP has it's own heritage and history, older and seperate than that of the USAF. I am certainly not suggesting that CAP's history is devoid of USAF involvement. But the Air Force uniform was developed by Air Force personel for Air Force missions and based on Air Force history. I'd bet my diamonds CAP didn't have anything to do with that process. While it is certainly an honor and gift to wear that uniform, it really only represents a part of who we are and where we come from, and certainly almost nothing about what we actually do. While the corporate uniforms may not be much closer to rectifying that, it doesn't change the argument. The uniform should be PART of our heritage, not THE heritage.

And as a leader in the CP, I think it is beyond ridiculous to suggest that it is the uniform that provides the glue for my cadets' discipline and success. I rather facied it's been the hard work and dedication of myself and other leaders of cadets. Their uniform does not teach them leadership, patriotism, and teamwork. I do that. The uniform REPRESENTS those values.

I'm sure that many cadets at certain military academies will be pleased to hear that CAP cadets must be better because the academy cadets only wear uniforms that LOOK militaristic rather than an actual military uniform...

[BuckeyeDEJ]

CAP has its history, but it's intertwined with its parent. And it's not "older" than the Air Force -- it may be older than the separate Air Force, but not of America's military air service.

The uniform is an honor bestowed on CAP's membership. It says a lot about what we do -- whether it's flying cadets (ours, ROTC or JROTC), homeland security missions with 1AF, looking for ELTs and EPIRBs at 4 a.m., leadership laboratory with our own cadets, or "flying the flag" for the Air Force in communities with no Air Force presence.

Nathan said:

I'm sure that many cadets at certain military academies will be pleased to hear that CAP cadets must be better because the academy cadets only wear uniforms that LOOK militaristic rather than an actual military uniform...

(rolling eyes) Where did that come from? I don't think anyone implied that the uniform makes our cadets better than those at the academies.

What the Air Force uniform does is reinforce the teaching of followership, leadership, teamwork, respect and discipline. Without the uniform and its rank, grade and decorations, the CAP system of cadet achievements starts falling apart. What is there to work for -- the noble cause of educating oneself? Heck, you can get that anywhere else. While the work of volunteers should never be discounted, it's the program as well as the people that make CAP's cadet program what it is. The Air Force uniform and the military environment is the draw for kids to come to CAP versus some other youth organization. They stay when they feel they're in that environment, and when they can fly, trudge around in the field, sit in a radio room, march on a drill pad, stand inspections, and learn to do all the aforementioned (and related things), especially when they know it'll help them reach their goals.

But darnit, the cadet program is ONE THIRD of CAP. Emergency services is one third. So's aerospace education, which we tend to give little more than lip service to. And the fourth mission, which seems a little less tidy to explain, is support for Air Force missions. Wow, we're part of the family, so why would we not wear the same blues? Do we really want to be the red-headed stepchild? Is it an all-or-nothing game?

[Hawk200]

What I am saying is that CAP has it's own heritage and history, older and seperate than that of the USAF.

It seems like you've either missed some of those history lessons, or are willingly turning a blind eye to it. CAP started under Office of Civilian Defense, and while there uniforms were "good enough" comglomerations of civilian clothing. Since CAP was aligned under military branches, they've always worn a military variant uniform.

The argument that CAP needs to follow it's own heritage is garbage in light of the fact we don't have any history pertaining to uniforms of our own anyway. All our heritage there comes from other organizations. The blazer combo is not a heritage item, it came about due to concerns of members not meeting Weight/grooming standards. The CSU wasn't even necessary, and was produced primarily by a single person. Our heritage has been one of working with someone else, not by ourselves.

I am amazed that the attitude of some members is basically: "Hey, Air Force, you're gonna give us planes to fly, money to run our operations, and places to stay on your bases. But we're not gonna wear your uniform, and you can keep your regulations. So cough up all that stuff, and we'll be on our way." It's a mindset that will lead us all into being nothing but history.

[Slim]

Keep in mind that I don't think anyone here is advocating that we should take cadets out of the AF style uniforms (service dress or BDUs).  I think the general intent here is to take the seniors out of them.

What the Air Force uniform does is reinforce the teaching of followership, leadership, teamwork, respect and discipline. Without the uniform and its rank, grade and decorations, the CAP system of cadet achievements starts falling apart. What is there to work for -- the noble cause of educating oneself? Heck, you can get that anywhere else. While the work of volunteers should never be discounted, it's the program as well as the people that make CAP's cadet program what it is. The Air Force uniform and the military environment is the draw for kids to come to CAP versus some other youth organization. They stay when they feel they're in that environment, and when they can fly, trudge around in the field, sit in a radio room, march on a drill pad, stand inspections, and learn to do all the aforementioned (and related things), especially when they know it'll help them reach their goals.

If it was the intent to take cadets out of the AF style uniforms, could the same thing not be achieved if the shirt was white, or the BDUs were blue?  Because that seems to be exactly what happens on the senior side of the house.  Again, I'm not suggesting that, or implying that anyone else is.

In the end, this-like any uniform argument around here-is nothing more than an exercise in "I'm right, you're wrong", failing to see the other side's argument, and raised blood pressure.  Nothing any one of us says is going to alter or affect the final outcome, so why get ourselves worked up over it? 

[flyingscotsman]

I agree with Kach and AlwaysReady, and my original posting was probably somewhat poorly worded.  It wasn't my intention to suggest that we need to look for the cheapest alternative for uniforms, but it does bear mentioning that whatever the standard is it needs to be affordable for the widest range of people.  For many of our events we do look like a NATO conference, with all sorts of combinations (correct and incorrect).  My strong desire is for us to have fewer uniform selections, that are more function oriented rather than weigh/grooming standards based.  I'm not complaining because I can't wear the AF style uni, far from it, I meet all of the requirements to do so.  I just think, as a non-profit volunteer organization, we can stand to improve our appearance to those outside of CAP while balancing the lifestyle choices of our members.  We have many worthwhile people in CAP that, for one reason or another, don't meet weight/grooming standards.  Calling people hippies and suggesting that they cut their beard is at best insulting and at worst enough to drive some to leave.  We have such a problem with finding quality members as it is to start disenfranchising those who don't fit your perception of normal looking.  Pairing the choices down, I believe, would go a long way to strengthen the esprit de corp within CAP.  I don't believe that ditching the AF uniform would insult the AF, or detract from our heritage.  To think so, I believe, trivializes our past accomplishments and relationship with the military.  I think this is more about strengthening our relationships with our fellow members.

P.s. I'm not suggesting eliminating AF uniforms for cadets, I'm only addressing our senior member uniform situation.

[Nathan]

CAP has its history, but it's intertwined with its parent. And it's not "older" than the Air Force -- it may be older than the separate Air Force, but not of America's military air service.

Semantics. We have been CAP longer than the USAF has been the USAF.

The uniform is an honor bestowed on CAP's membership. It says a lot about what we do -- whether it's flying cadets (ours, ROTC or JROTC), homeland security missions with 1AF, looking for ELTs and EPIRBs at 4 a.m., leadership laboratory with our own cadets, or "flying the flag" for the Air Force in communities with no Air Force presence.

I honestly don't see how anyone except other CAP members can tell that we do that by our uniform. Hell, most of the USAF doesn't seem to know what we do or that we exist. Many of the comments I've seen on other boards by both USAF personel and others are generally negative toward our wear of the uniform, commonly referred to as "playing soldier." Of course, this does not reflect the professional opinion of the USAF, but it certainly does not support your counterargument.

What the Air Force uniform does is reinforce the teaching of followership, leadership, teamwork, respect and discipline. Without the uniform and its rank, grade and decorations, the CAP system of cadet achievements starts falling apart. What is there to work for -- the noble cause of educating oneself?

So let me get this straight... you would rather a cadet do good things merely for uniform bling? Or do you really believe that most cadets join this program because they are initially patriotic citizens wanting to donate time and money toward helping their country?

The latter assertion is flat out incorrect, and the former assertion would be against (what I believe, at least) to be the goal of the program. If we're supposed to be building model citizens and leaders, we should hopefully be building such leaders that don't need to be wearing a uniform in order to lead. They shouldn't need to get a ribbon for being alive for two years in order to stay motivated. While I understand that it is a driving factor for the cadets, it shouldn't STAY that way. They should eventually be able to move past the need for mateiral reward. The groundwork is even set up in the first leadership chapter. Integrity is the idea of doing the right thing even when no one is watching. No reward, but still doing the duty. THAT is the cadet we need to build in this program.

And let's be honest, the aviator shirt and CSU has a place for a ribbon, AND it has a place for rank. The C&C and rank structures won't change because we're not wearing a USAF uniform. The colors aren't going to make a difference if you're trying to motivate them through rank and awards.

The Air Force uniform and the military environment is the draw for kids to come to CAP versus some other youth organization. They stay when they feel they're in that environment, and when they can fly, trudge around in the field, sit in a radio room, march on a drill pad, stand inspections, and learn to do all the aforementioned (and related things), especially when they know it'll help them reach their goals.

I think you're being a little unrealistically idealistic here. I highly, highly doubt that it is the AIR FORCE uniform that draws cadets into the program, although I'd be more than happy to conduct a survey of my squadron tonight. I would imagine it's the draw of a militaristic uniform, period. Ever been mistaken for being in the Army? For us, that's a laughable mistake, but to the general population, many of them don't know and/or don't care what the difference or significance between the separate branches are. Before I became a cadet, I had no idea that the Coast Guard and the Navy were even separate branches, and my father was IN the Navy. While I joined for the SAR aspect of the program, I will admit that the uniform was a lure for me. But it honestly wouldn't have mattered whether it was a USAF uniform, Navy, Marine, whatever.

Well, that's a bit of a fib. The Marine dress uniform is WAY too cool to pass up. 

And the fourth mission, which seems a little less tidy to explain, is support for Air Force missions. Wow, we're part of the family, so why would we not wear the same blues? Do we really want to be the red-headed stepchild? Is it an all-or-nothing game?

I volunteer at a hospital. Should I be allowed to wear a white doctor's coat?
Being in support of a mission does not mean that we do the same things, and that the uniform was even really built for our needs. This becomes frighteningly apparent when one takes a moment to comprehend the thought process behind a SAR team wearing camoflauge.
And don't forget that we support a LOT of other programs in addition to the USAF. It is true that we support the USAF primarily, but in reality, we support whoever we are assigned to support BY the USAF (or even just by the higher ups in CAP), which could mean Coast Guard, police, firefighters, FEMA, some guy with a search dog, whatever.

And let's not act as if the CSU doesn't LOOK like a USAF uniform. It does; it almost looks more like the USAF uniform than a senior member with gray epauletes does. I think being allowed to even get that close to the uniform is an honor, and we could stick every member in it.
Imagine if our uniforms were uniform... that'd be a sight...