Required Weigh-Ins

[mikeylikey]

An interesting Knowledgebase item as I was browsing this morning;

Question
  Can a Squadron Commander require a weigh-in for a senior member to find out if they meet the weight standards for wearing AF style uniforms?


  Answer
  Yes. CAPM 39-1 Paragraph 1-2 (see below) tasks commanders to ensure that all members present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP. Requiring a periodic weigh-in, like the AF, by senior members and cadets age 18 and older who choose to wear the AF style uniform would be reasonable. Unlike the AF, CAP does not have a remedial fitness program for members who exceed weight standards nor are there any types of punitive measures allowed against those members. CAP members who exceed weight standards are prohibited from wearing the AF style uniform but are allowed to wear any of the CAP distinctive uniforms or civilian attire as befits the occasion. Note: CAP weight standards include a 10% higher maximum than AF weight standards. See attachment below for CAP weight standards for wearing the AF style uniform.

See CAPM 39-1 ATTACHMENT 1 CAP WEIGHT STANDARDS.

In other words, I will put out to my squadron
"There is change in the schedule for next week, bring shorts and a t-shirt as we will be weighing in.  Because the uniform for next week is Class A's I suggest all Senior Members bring something else to change into should you not meet the weight standards".   

[Becks]

Unlike the AF, CAP does not have a remedial fitness program for members who exceed weight standards nor are there any types of punitive measures allowed against those members.

Although frankly I think there should be, along with PT testing for promotions and officer training before youre just "made" a 2Lt, in fact I would love to have Senior NCO ranks because alot of SM's just dont deserve officer grade....just my $0.02

[arajca]

Unlike the AF, CAP does not have a remedial fitness program for members who exceed weight standards nor are there any types of punitive measures allowed against those members.

Although frankly I think there should be, along with PT testing for promotions and officer training before youre just "made" a 2Lt, in fact I would love to have Senior NCO ranks because alot of SM's just dont deserve officer grade....just my $0.02

Why? We are not the military. PT is not a part of the CAP senir program. We do have training for SM's - inadequate though it is IMO. As far as 'deserving' officer grade, how you do you determine that? CAP has set standards for grade, if a member meets those standards, they are deserving of the grade. They're not the same as the military because we are different culture and have a different mission than the military.

Methinks it may be time to reveal my concept for a totally redesigned, retooled, and reconfigured CAP Adult Member Program.

Then again, maybe not.

[SER Safety]

CAP Members:
simply put No US AF uniform for those not meeting the standards

[pixelwonk]

Unlike the AF, CAP does not have a remedial fitness program for members who exceed weight standards nor are there any types of punitive measures allowed against those members.

Although frankly I think there should be, along with PT testing for promotions and officer training before youre just "made" a 2Lt, in fact I would love to have Senior NCO ranks because alot of SM's just dont deserve officer grade....just my $0.02

So, when you turn 30-40 or so and achieve terminal-dunlap will you request that your status be reverted to SM w/o grade?
way to start the thread drift early  

So back to the topic...
MikeyLikey, after shattering the fragile egos of your SMs by weighing them during a meeting, how are you prepared to deal with the results?
How do you plan to counsel  those who exceed the standards?
Will you be prepared to do or fill the jobs of those who were offended by this and decide to stop showing up?

I think there has just got to be a better way to ensure compliance than rubbing the dog's nose in the pile.  For starters, a good example must be set by the commander.  You're probably already doing that though, right?  Not only that, how about finding a respected member who DOES comply (may have to look outside your unit here) and ask them to conduct a distinctive uniform session at a meeting in the near future.  

Encourage encourage encourage!
It's just not for cadets anymore...

Andrew... PM me for details about the proposal.  It ought to be featured on more than just a forum and I'd like to help you with that when you're ready.

[Becks]

Methinks it may be time to reveal my concept for a totally redesigned, retooled, and reconfigured CAP Adult Member Program.

Reveal away....

However what is there to lose by having a senior PT program? If you participate in it then perhaps that tire around your gut would be gone Major.  I never said the requirements would have to be intense, Im aware we're not enlisted, but I believe it would promote healthier lifestyles and thus benefit the program.

[pixelwonk]

Methinks it may be time to reveal my concept for a totally redesigned, retooled, and reconfigured CAP Adult Member Program.

Reveal away....

However what is there to lose by having a senior PT program? If you participate in it then perhaps that tire around your gut would be gone Major.  I never said the requirements would have to be intense, Im aware we're not enlisted, but I believe it would promote healthier lifestyles and thus benefit the program.

Not that you'd care, but my fitness program is through work and I alternate cardio and weights 4 times a week at my employer's fitness center and I don't currently wear an AF style uniform.
   
Promoting healthier lifestyles and benefitting the program is not what you implied in your reply to Mikeylikey.  Actually, you suggested that PT testing would be a part of the promotion system, along with agreeing to remedial fitness programs and punitive measures for SMs who fall beyond AF standards.

So I'll ask again... In the event that you should become one of those members later in your life/CAP career, will you voluntarily surrender your grade and accept a SM w/o grade status?

[MAJORZ04]

To All....
The weight and grooming standards, FOR SENIORS, must be a voluntary
thing.  Senior members a should be capable to make the decision
what "uniform" they can wear.  A Commander can advise a senior
member to stick with the "distinctive" uniform. "privately".
To institute a weigh-in would not be conducive to "member retention"...
Please... Please... Please, re-evaluate, carefully, going down that road.
We are all going toooooooo far on this uniform thing...

Major Z

[Al Sayre]

Then there's that whole sticky non-discrimination thing for anyone who couldn't pass the PT test...

[SER Safety]

Major Z is right on the ball

for the JO (junior Officer and NCO) please remember that we have senior members that have served CAP for over 50 years

great discussion

[BillB]

As one of those Senior members that have been in CAP for 50+ years. I agree and disagree. I agree that CAP needs to reevaluate the SM rank situation. Spend six months in CAP and a day in a level 1 and CPPT class and you can get promoted to 2LT. And you still don't need to know the first thing about CAP. Plus there is still to much of the good-old-boy syndrome in CAP.
What would the PT program be? Do you expect a 45 year old SM to be able to do the cadet PT program? A PT Program for SM is unrealistic since SM range in age from 18 to 92. Or are you going to say any SM over the age of 60 (even if he/she meets weight standards) must get out of the AF uniform and into one of the multitude of corporate uniforms?

[SarDragon]

BTW, CAP doesn't wear Class As, or Class Bs, or Class [anything else]. That's a long time leftover from our former association with the Army. The correct nomenclatures are found in CAPM 39-1.

[SER Safety]

PT for SM

I'll do it no problem, we are also required to do wieght - Ins for SAR Missions

remember the WB calculations for our CAP aircraft and O rides, that has not change for SM

[pixelwonk]

...That's a long time leftover from our former association with the Army.

seems just like yesterday, eh Dave?  

[Becks]

Methinks it may be time to reveal my concept for a totally redesigned, retooled, and reconfigured CAP Adult Member Program.

Reveal away....

However what is there to lose by having a senior PT program? If you participate in it then perhaps that tire around your gut would be gone Major.  I never said the requirements would have to be intense, Im aware we're not enlisted, but I believe it would promote healthier lifestyles and thus benefit the program.

Not that you'd care, but my fitness program is through work and I alternate cardio and weights 4 times a week at my employer's fitness center and I don't currently wear an AF style uniform.
   
Promoting healthier lifestyles and benefitting the program is not what you implied in your reply to Mikeylikey.  Actually, you suggested that PT testing would be a part of the promotion system, along with agreeing to remedial fitness programs and punitive measures for SMs who fall beyond AF standards.

So I'll ask again... In the event that you should become one of those members later in your life/CAP career, will you voluntarily surrender your grade and accept a SM w/o grade status?

You're wrong, I do care and in turn congratulate you on bettering your life through exercise.  If you read my original post you will see that I never mentioned punishment for current officers not able to meet a PT standard.  I never mentioned "busting someone" down in grade.  Instead I was saying that in order to be promoted in the first place you would be required to take some sort of test.  Obviously the older the individual the easier the tests would be, just like in the military.  Obviously there is no need to make a PT requirement as intensive as active duty, but I still believe there needs to be one.  If we had Senior NCO ranks one could progress through without at PT, but I still firmly believe that becoming an officer should be stricter, perhaps even requiring leadership school/course. 

BillB hit it right on the nose when he said "Spend six months in CAP and a day in a level 1 and CPPT class and you can get promoted to 2LT. And you still don't need to know the first thing about CAP."  That is my point when I said not all SM deserve officer grade.

[SarDragon]

Bottom line on promotions - the commander has to sign the Form 2.

In CAWG, we are required to add the following statements to the remarks section:
(a) Member's date of birth.
(b) Statement that the member is a high school graduate or has the educational equivalent.
(c) Statement that the member has been performing his/her duties in an exemplary manner and is recommended for promotion by the unit commander.
(d) For mission related promotions the unit commander must certify that the member is actively utilizing his/her mission related skills in behalf of CAP on a regular basis.

If a commander pencil whips it, we all lose.

BTW, Ted, that terminology was incorrect when I joined back in [mumble].

[pixelwonk]

If you read my original post you will see that I never mentioned punishment for current officers not able to meet a PT standard. 

Nope, you didn't but you agreed to it, didn't you?

Unlike the AF, CAP does not have a remedial fitness program for members who exceed weight standards nor are there any types of punitive measures allowed against those members.

Although frankly I think there should be, along with PT testing for promotions and officer training before youre just "made" a 2Lt, in fact I would love to have Senior NCO ranks because alot of SM's just dont deserve officer grade....just my $0.02

I never mentioned "busting someone" down in grade.  Instead I was saying that in order to be promoted in the first place you would be required to take some sort of test. 

Nope, you didn't mention busting someone down.  Nor have you answered my question either.  If SM PT is important  for the health of the Senior Member program itself, not to mention CAP as a whole, than you should be willing to surrender your grade for the duration of your time in CAP should you exceed weight standards in the future.  If you're not, then why require PT testing for promotions in the first place?

If we had Senior NCO ranks one could progress through without at PT, but I still firmly believe that becoming an officer should be stricter, perhaps even requiring leadership school/course.

Explain how restricting overweight members to being NCOs will help the organization.  I can imagine a lot of Wing Commanders who will be sewing stripes on.

BillB hit it right on the nose when he said "Spend six months in CAP and a day in a level 1 and CPPT class and you can get promoted to 2LT. And you still don't need to know the first thing about CAP."  That is my point when I said not all SM deserve officer grade.

What you are saying about officer training and development, along with what BillB has said is separate from the PT issue.  For what it's worth, I'd be thrilled to see significant changes made to Senior member Professional Development and the grade progression structure.  Just keep that issue to a different thread.

[Nick]

I don't particularly see anything wrong with requiring weigh-in's solely to establish that a senior member may/may not wear an AF-style uniform... IF that member wishes to wear such a uniform.  If a member knows he/she is overweight or otherwise not in conformance to AF uniform standards, then don't require them to weigh-in.  But, if they choose to wear one, then what harm comes from enforcing the standards and requiring them to provide documentable proof (scale reading) to a uniform monitor person of sorts?

But no, I do not agree with any implicated requirement to participate in PT or anything else that is not currently required for senior members... I don't think you'll have much luck enforcing that anywhere.  Just enforce what is already on the books, of which weight standards are part.

[shorning]

I've been reading through this thread.  The one thing that comes to mind is:  "Hello lawsuit!".  No not someone suing the corporation.  I mean someone suing the commander.  I hope you're caring personal liability insurance. 

Here's an idea...why don't we focus on our missions (AKA "stay in our lane") and skip creating additional requirements for our members.  You "wanna be" in the military?  Join the military.  Are in the military and want CAP to be more like the military?  Get a clue!  They are totally different programs.

But whatever...corrupt your program anyway you want.

[Becks]

If you read my original post you will see that I never mentioned punishment for current officers not able to meet a PT standard. 

I never mentioned "busting someone" down in grade.  Instead I was saying that in order to be promoted in the first place you would be required to take some sort of test. 

Nope, you didn't mention busting someone down.  Nor have you answered my question either.  If SM PT is important  for the health of the Senior Member program itself, not to mention CAP as a whole, than you should be willing to surrender your grade for the duration of your time in CAP should you exceed weight standards in the future.  If you're not, then why require PT testing for promotions in the first place?

Although it has nothing to do with what I am saying since as I have pointed out I never spoke of busting someone down a grade, you seem to just want an answer for your own personal gratification and so I will induldge you.  Yes, I would surrender if it was required by a reg as I would be in violation of it.  To me it would be cut and dry, if you dont do A, then B happens.  Simple cause and effect.

What you are saying about officer training and development, along with what BillB has said is separate from the PT issue.  For what it's worth, I'd be thrilled to see significant changes made to Senior member Professional Development and the grade progression structure.  Just keep that issue to a different thread.

Thrilled? So then I take it that if the officer/professional development course for some reason proved too hard that you would surrender your maple leaf?

Here's an idea...why don't we focus on our missions (AKA "stay in our lane") and skip creating additional requirements for our members.  You "wanna be" in the military?  Join the military.  Are in the military and want CAP to be more like the military?  Get a clue!  They are totally different programs.

But whatever...corrupt your program anyway you want.

[/color]

Everything I have said has been purely hypothetical and in no way constitutes me "corrupting my program".  Just because I may have an idea that I express in no way means that I am going to act upon nor am I in a position to act upon it if I want to.  I am speaking mere conjecture and find your comment completely unfounded and uncalled for.