Honor Guard Uniforms: Split from Marketplace

[afgeo4]

Cadet officers would HAVE TO wear the new Officer service coat. They can't attach cadet officer epaulets to the enlisted coat.

The "new" officer service coat is worn without black sleeve braids (which aren't on the coat when you purchase it). Cadet enlisted may wear either enlisted or officer service coat since nothing specifies which they can and cannot wear. 

No. You can very easily attach the shoulder boards to the enlisted coat. In fact, it actually ends up looking a little cleaner, since they're a little more firmly attached to the jacket, and not floppy on the epaulet. BTDT.

As well, no service coat is worn with a black sleeve braid. We use a 1/2 inch dark/navy blue braid for company/field grade, 1 inch dark/navy blue braid for general officers.

Would you mind telling us how one is supposed to attach the Cadet officer shoulder boards to the new enlisted service coat please? And please don't use unauthorized methods to do this (no safety pins, glue, velcro, etc).

[SarDragon]

What is the "authorized" method? And where is it specified?

[ßτε]

^^

So how does one attach Cadet Officer Shoulder Boards to the service coats with epaulets? It seems the epaulets would be in the way.

My shoulder boards were attached with snaps, although for me, that was on the light blue shirt only. I don't know what they use now, but I thought it was Velcro.

[notaNCO forever]

 I use the velcro that came with my shoulder boards. My jacket has epaulets and it works just fine. Another problem I see with cadets not having epaulets on the jacket is were do the shoulder cords go?

[Pylon]

Would you mind telling us how one is supposed to attach the Cadet officer shoulder boards to the new enlisted service coat please? And please don't use unauthorized methods to do this (no safety pins, glue, velcro, etc).

There's no such thing as an unauthorized or authorized method to attach the shoulderboards.

[afgeo4]

Would you mind telling us how one is supposed to attach the Cadet officer shoulder boards to the new enlisted service coat please? And please don't use unauthorized methods to do this (no safety pins, glue, velcro, etc).

There's no such thing as an unauthorized or authorized method to attach the shoulderboards.

Uniform items come specifically designed to be affixed to uniforms (shoulder boards and others).

Altering uniform items in a non-approved way is NOT authorized. That's why senior members have hook & loop epaulets and regular sleeve ones. That's why our plastic grade insignia is sewn on and not velcro on. That's why we place ribbons on uniforms on ribbon holders and not just glue them on or something.

[Pylon]

Altering uniform items in a non-approved way is NOT authorized.

Well if that's the case I guess every cadet officer is then left with the requirement to wear shoulder boards in service dress blues with no "authorized" way to attach them.  Since the boards come with nothing provided and no built-in way to attach them, one must add something to the equation here (velcro dots, velcro strips, epaulets and glue, something) otherwise it would be pretty tedious to try and balance them on ones shoulders all day long, wouldn't you say?

In addition, adding velcro or something else to a piece of insignia in order to attach it doesn't constitute altering a uniform.  The CAPM 39-1 doesn't talk about sewing velcro to the back of patches to affix to the flight suit, yet common sense dictates that (again, unless you want to try to hold your patches on with your hands or balance your rank on your shoulders) you must add something to the equation to get it attached the uniform - a little velcro, a little adhesive, a few stitches, etc.

That's why senior members have hook & loop epaulets and regular sleeve ones. That's why our plastic grade insignia is sewn on and not velcro on. That's why we place ribbons on uniforms on ribbon holders and not just glue them on or something.

Those items already come with a built-in way to attach them to the uniform.  You just pin it to your uniform, clip on the clutchbacks and voilà.  The epaulet sleeves for SMs have a built-in way to affix to the uniform, thus one uses that method of attachment.   But if you just hold up a cadet shoulderboard to your uniform and press really hard, or hold on a wing patch without velcro really hard to your flight suit guess what happens?  It falls off.    Hmmm... I guess we can't alter anything to attach it better just go without a uniform today and hope that the boards stick on their own tomorrow...   

This is the part of the uniform manual and CAP regulations where common sense is assumed to already have been issued to the reader.

[afgeo4]

Altering uniform items in a non-approved way is NOT authorized.

Well if that's the case I guess every cadet officer is then left with the requirement to wear shoulder boards in service dress blues with no "authorized" way to attach them.  Since the boards come with nothing provided and no built-in way to attach them, one must add something to the equation here (velcro dots, velcro strips, epaulets and glue, something) otherwise it would be pretty tedious to try and balance them on ones shoulders all day long, wouldn't you say?

In addition, adding velcro or something else to a piece of insignia in order to attach it doesn't constitute altering a uniform.  The CAPM 39-1 doesn't talk about sewing velcro to the back of patches to affix to the flight suit, yet common sense dictates that (again, unless you want to try to hold your patches on with your hands or balance your rank on your shoulders) you must add something to the equation to get it attached the uniform - a little velcro, a little adhesive, a few stitches, etc.

That's why senior members have hook & loop epaulets and regular sleeve ones. That's why our plastic grade insignia is sewn on and not velcro on. That's why we place ribbons on uniforms on ribbon holders and not just glue them on or something.

Those items already come with a built-in way to attach them to the uniform.  You just pin it to your uniform, clip on the clutchbacks and voilà.  The epaulet sleeves for SMs have a built-in way to affix to the uniform, thus one uses that method of attachment.   But if you just hold up a cadet shoulderboard to your uniform and press really hard, or hold on a wing patch without velcro really hard to your flight suit guess what happens?  It falls off.    Hmmm... I guess we can't alter anything to attach it better just go without a uniform today and hope that the boards stick on their own tomorrow...   

This is the part of the uniform manual and CAP regulations where common sense is assumed to already have been issued to the reader.

Common sense isn't so common. That's why regulations are supposed to spell out EVERY detail. The fact that they don't is a problem. You're on a 39-1 board, aren't you? Perhaps that's something that should be remedied.

There should be instructions on how to PROPERLY attach items like shoulder boards, patches and shoulder cords. In the military (and other places) if you produce an item that cannot be attached to what it's supposed to go onto it's considered to be a mistake. 39-1 talks about how rank is to be sewed onto the flightsuit and how cloth rank is supposed to be sewed onto BDUs. Pin-on rank isn't glue-on rank. That's all spelled out for a reason. Uniformity. Same should be applied to all uniform items.

[SarDragon]

There should be instructions on how to PROPERLY attach items like shoulder boards, patches and shoulder cords.

You're right, there should. But right now there isn't, so our members are looking for reasonable ways to accomplish these tasks cheaply and efficiently. Grousing about how bad the 39-1 is doesn't solve the immediate problem.

39-1 talks about how rank is to be sewed onto the flightsuit and how cloth rank is supposed to be sewed onto BDUs. Pin-on rank isn't glue-on rank. That's all spelled out for a reason. Uniformity. Same should be applied to all uniform items.

Au contraire!

The word "sew" or its derivatives, "sewn" or "sewing", appears only three times in the CAPM 39-1, and none of them speak to rank insignia, badges, patches, cutouts, etc., except one entry referring to SM NCO chevrons, and another referring to the crest on the blazer.

It says these items will be "worn", and details placement, but not method of attachment.

Ball's in your court.

YMMV.

[afgeo4]

You're right. So... how do you, 99.99% of military and CAP members, the National Commander of CAP, Chief of Staff USAF, and the Joint Chiefs wear those embroidered insignia?

[Pylon]

You're right. So... how do you, 99.99% of military and CAP members, the National Commander of CAP, Chief of Staff USAF, and the Joint Chiefs wear those embroidered insignia?

The aforementioned common sense.  The same common sense that would allow cadets to use any practical and invisible method of attaching their shoulder boards to their service dress.

[SarDragon]

You're right. So... how do you, 99.99% of military and CAP members, the National Commander of CAP, Chief of Staff USAF, and the Joint Chiefs wear those embroidered insignia?

Personally, sewing is involved for most. However, that wasn't my point. You wrote:

39-1 talks about how rank is to be sewed onto the flightsuit and how cloth rank is supposed to be sewed onto BDUs. Pin-on rank isn't glue-on rank. That's all spelled out for a reason. Uniformity. Same should be applied to all uniform items.

I was refuting the highlighted text. There is no governing reg that specifies what you say.

[afgeo4]

You're right. So... how do you, 99.99% of military and CAP members, the National Commander of CAP, Chief of Staff USAF, and the Joint Chiefs wear those embroidered insignia?

Personally, sewing is involved for most. However, that wasn't my point. You wrote:

39-1 talks about how rank is to be sewed onto the flightsuit and how cloth rank is supposed to be sewed onto BDUs. Pin-on rank isn't glue-on rank. That's all spelled out for a reason. Uniformity. Same should be applied to all uniform items.

I was refuting the highlighted text. There is no governing reg that specifies what you say.

Yes, that was covered by "you're right." in my reply to your post.

Mr. Kieloch, would you be able to include this into the 39-1 committee?

It'd be nice to see a re-design of the shoulder board (or could they just wear the soft sleeves like seniors do?) and maybe more specific language on how to attach things. I've seen people velcro on nametapes, rank insignia, US flag and other things onto BDUs. I've seen people use glue, velcro and other methods to attach plastic case insignia to flight suits (and then wonder what went wrong).

Like I said, common sense, even if common to 99% still isn't common to 100% and uniformity only happens when ALL are uniform.

[rightstuffpilot]

Rumor from the vanguard rep is that they are working on it.  The current system allows cadets to wear the shoulder boards on whatever uniform they please.  Which, as annoying as velcro is, is true.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

When I was a cadet officer, back in the mid-to-late-1980s, our shoulder boards were attached to our service coats via metal snaps. The female snaps on the boards connected to male snaps sewn onto the service coat.

Cadet officer shoulder boards CAN be attached to the post-1992 Air Force enlisted coat. In fact, it's a lot less sloppy than putting them on an epaulet. That was a gripe I used to have -- the boards on top of epaulets never quite looked right.

On the mess dress uniform, the boards attach a completely different way -- using two fabric loops sewn on. AFROTC boards attach with the butterfly clips/boobs/whatever you call them that we use for everything else, only with longer prongs.

And let's face it, CAPM 39-1 is a poorly conceived waste of paper/bandwidth that would be better off scrapped, rewritten and made an attachment to AFI 36-2903. You'll never have agreement on things for which the regulation is unclear or MIA, so let's fix it and move forward!