SMVs Revoked?

[jimmydeanno]

Isn't this kind of an easy debate to solve.  Just pull up the police report for the day and see if "mini-van roll over" is on there.

[James Shaw]

I dont know if C.A.P. is necessarily alone on this type of debating though.  I've heard AF personnel complain about how some of their officers seem to have picked up bronze stars (without the V device) pretty easily while they were downrange... for things they thought were basically routine and not quite meeting the "heroic or meritorious achievement or service, ...while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States..." qualifications.

I guess its always "YMMV"! 

I am sure that there are examples of this in every branch of the service and any public service group. I think that alot of these award decisions are based on the subjective opinions of the people currently serving on the "awarding committee". I think this holds true for any award such as the Commanders Commendation up to the SMV. The personal opinions and the feelings of the people who are making the decision may be influenced by their feelings at the time. We see it all the time and may even perpetuate the problem ourselves by submitting an award for a higher one to try and make sure that even if they lower it to the next level the person still gets recognized.

I know of a 30+ member who is a Lieutenant Colonel that turns down most of the awards that are passed in front of him and his position if he has not been awarded the same allready. This was tracked and brought to the appropriate attention and the person was removed from that job because he was not being fair and impartial. He is no longer with us actively.

My philosophy is simple "If they earn it make sure they get it".

I know of one individual who has earned 4 Distinguished Service Medals and has never been a Wing Commander and they disurve everyone of them as far as I can tell.

I am also Very Sure that any of these high level awards will be far more scrutinized that they have in the past. They may even change the validation requirements for these things.

[ColonelJack]

I am sure that there are examples of this in every branch of the service and any public service group. I think that alot of these award decisions are based on the subjective opinions of the people currently serving on the "awarding committee". I think this holds true for any award such as the Commanders Commendation up to the SMV. The personal opinions and the feelings of the people who are making the decision may be influenced by their feelings at the time. We see it all the time and may even perpetuate the problem ourselves by submitting an award for a higher one to try and make sure that even if they lower it to the next level the person still gets recognized.

I know for a fact that this happens.  Back in '82 I was put up for a Meritorious Service Award for my work at the GAWG encampment at Ft. Benning.  The writeup was pretty awesome (I wish I had been the officer they wrote about!!) but higher up, the award was kicked down to a Commander's Commendation.  I felt that more appropriate, myself ... didn't even know I'd been put up for a MSA until I got the paperwork back.

I know of a 30+ member who is a Lieutenant Colonel that turns down most of the awards that are passed in front of him and his position if he has not been awarded the same allready. This was tracked and brought to the appropriate attention and the person was removed from that job because he was not being fair and impartial. He is no longer with us actively.

That's inexcusable.  Just because he didn't have it, nobody could have it?  We're better off without that kind of attitude.

My philosophy is simple "If they earn it make sure they get it".

Amen, brother!

I know of one individual who has earned 4 Distinguished Service Medals and has never been a Wing Commander and they disurve everyone of them as far as I can tell.

And, if you ask me (which you didn't), some of the Wing Kings I've seen and known didn't deserve the DSM they got just for holding down the post.  It should be very difficult to earn a DSM, not just serving as a Wing King.

I am also Very Sure that any of these high level awards will be far more scrutinized that they have in the past. They may even change the validation requirements for these things.

Let us hope.

Jack

[notaNCO forever]

 CAP needs vary well defined regs for giving out awards and should make sure awards that are given are deserved. This way you know if someone gets an award they did earn it.

[James Shaw]

CAP needs vary well defined regs for giving out awards and should make sure awards that are given are deserved. This way you know if someone gets an award they did earn it.

I feel that we do have a good system setup. The problem that we have is that the bad gets alot more attention than any of the good. People do not seem to get as much satisfaction from hearing about good as they do the bad. There are alot of people who are quick to point out what is wrong and fewer to stand up and say what is happening that is good. The thing about this CAPTalk website is the vast majority discuss and talk about how things are both good and bad. They dont sit and brood to much about how everything is wrong and nothing ever is right. Nothing is ever perfect but overall it is a great organization to be associated with (even with the occasional bad egg). I think that being in CAP is great and I am honored to be a part of it and I love being a Historian!!

[Duke Dillio]

It may be a good system but I think there should be some judicious expedition going on there Jim.  How long did it take for you to get your SMV versus how long it took TP?

The thing with awards though is that there will always be abuse at some point.  There are some in this organization and many others who look for any reason to get the next piece of bling.  They want that South American general look.  If we didn't have regs against it, I'm sure that someone would pop out with ribbons and badges going up one side above the pocket and halfway down their back with more blingage on the right side as well.

My dad always said the same thing about awards.  "It doesn't matter what award they give you.  It's the action that earned it that makes you a true hero."

[jb512]

I can see where entering a crashed van to pull victims out would be hazardous without the proper safety equipment, but in most cases you're not supposed to do that.  Vehicles don't explode like in the movies and unless it's on fire, with the amount of trauma caused during a rollover, it's best to leave them where they're at until they can be stabilized and removed properly.  I guess it would depend on the extent of the leaking fuel that was mentioned.

While I fully agree with you regarding the issuance of the Medal of Valor, the main reason I posted the initial question regarding these particular SMVs centers around the widely-held belief that the accident in question never actually happened.  While NOTF and Mr. Hayden are reviled (and in many cases rightly so), I haven't found any examples of their being just plain wrong about something -- in fact, their accuracy rate is rather high.  Both "sources" say the incident for which the three received the SMV did not happen.  And the rumor mill is now relating that NHQ has revoked the SMVs issued. 

Whether or not the incident as reported rates a Medal of Valor, a Lifesaving Ribbon, or just a pat on the back and an "attaboy!" isn't the issue.  The issue (as far as I see it) is one of stolen valor; awarding CAP's highest decoration for something that may not have ever taken place.

Jack

Well then that's just something way over our heads here on a discussion board.  If the event never happened and they falsified it, then there should be someone available over there to investigate it and fix it.  If it did happen, then they're apparently happy.

I'm sure there's an IG in the area that could solve the mystery fairly easily if need be.

[Tim Medeiros]

I'm wondering why they were headed for JAX Airport, when all live in South Florida. If they were driving they would have been headed to I -75. that would have had them cutting diagonically across the state, rather than going east and than another 350 miles towards Miami.

Your not taking into account that going down I-75 you encounter a toll road just after Naples.  Its amazing how "cheap" people can be, especially when they don't factor in the extra gas.

[AlphaSigOU]

I'm wondering why they were headed for JAX Airport, when all live in South Florida. If they were driving they would have been headed to I -75. that would have had them cutting diagonically across the state, rather than going east and than another 350 miles towards Miami.

Your not taking into account that going down I-75 you encounter a toll road just after Naples.  Its amazing how "cheap" people can be, especially when they don't factor in the extra gas.

Yep... ya gotta choice of getting fleeced on the Florida Turnpike or Alligator Alley.

Back when I was living in Oklahoma, they had the perfect word defined for those who avoided taking the turnpikes - and in Oklahoma practically every major highway and interstate is tolled - "shunpikers".

[Eagle400]

CAP needs vary well defined regs for giving out awards and should make sure awards that are given are deserved. This way you know if someone gets an award they did earn it.

I agree with you.

However, I absolutely believe that such regs are purposely vague so that people like Pineda, Parker and Levitch can get away with receiving awards for "valorous" actions in a situation that did not even happen. 

[Eagle400]

One would think that there is a system of checks & balances in place to prevent such a thing. . . . .

Yes, but believing that this system of checks & balances is effective requires the willful suspension of disbelief.

[SSgt Rudin]

There is an easy way to find out if it ever really happened, and maybe even get a copy of the police report... http://www.coj.net/Departments/Sheriffs+Office/Press+Room/default.htm

[lordmonar]

Pineda and friends aside.....what level of proof do we need...and who has the burden of said proof?

Even in the USAF no one really questions if someone has done what is put into an award package.

It is assumed that the award is being submitted by someone with first hand knowledge of the even.  Which leads to the military axiom that it is not always what you do....but who SEES you doing it!

I do beleive that CAP needs to have better guidance on what is really needed for what level of award.   The reg guidance is fairly clear but I have heard of a lot of people adding or interpeting to these requirments in an inconsitant manner.

[Maj Ballard]

There is an easy way to find out if it ever really happened, and maybe even get a copy of the police report... http://www.coj.net/Departments/Sheriffs+Office/Press+Room/default.htm

Why would the City of Jacksonville have the report? It happened somewhere between Tallahassee and Jacksonville on I-10. That's a big stretch of road.

[AlphaSigOU]

There is an easy way to find out if it ever really happened, and maybe even get a copy of the police report... http://www.coj.net/Departments/Sheriffs+Office/Press+Room/default.htm

Why would the City of Jacksonville have the report? It happened somewhere between Tallahassee and Jacksonville on I-10. That's a big stretch of road.

If it happened within Duval County, it's also the City of Jacksonville, except for a few small towns that did not consolidate. But you're right... that IS a long stretch of road between TLH and JAX.

[ColonelJack]

There is an easy way to find out if it ever really happened, and maybe even get a copy of the police report... http://www.coj.net/Departments/Sheriffs+Office/Press+Room/default.htm

Unfortunately, their archives go back only to October 2006.  The accident took place 5 Sep 2005 (if it happened at all).

Jack

[Maj Ballard]

My understanding was that it supposedly happened near Tallahassee... nowhere near Jax. It would more likely be an FHP report.

[mikeylikey]

It is assumed that the award is being submitted by someone with first hand knowledge of the even.  Which leads to the military axiom that it is not always what you do....but who SEES you doing it!

Plus a Commissioned Officer signs it and sends it, attesting to what is written.  If it later comes out that what was written did not happen, that Officer would face at a minimum an Article 32, and possibly dismissal from the Service.  Trust me when I say, all awards are verified somewhere in the chain.  Usually an Officer (Company Grade) is assigned that extra duty in the unit.  I can only speak for the way the Army works, but I am sure the AF works very similar. 

In CAP there are no repercussions for sending a fraudulent award up. 

[Hawk200]

In CAP there are no repercussions for sending a fraudulent award up. 

There are repercussions, but they're not of a punitive nature. We don't send anyone to Leavenworth, or give them an Article 15.

I don't know how CAP would handle such an issue. Pineda's termination was not directly resulting from this SMV issue, but it may very well have had something to do with it. We probably will never know.

[ColonelJack]

I don't know how CAP would handle such an issue. Pineda's termination was not directly resulting from this SMV issue, but it may very well have had something to do with it. We probably will never know.

Most likely not, since the other two involved are (as of last report) still members of CAP and retain their grade.

Jack