Hawk and NBB bling clarification on NEC agenda

[O-Rex]

In reading the proposal, all the NEC would be doing is legitimizing what Rangers and NBB have been doing for years.

It's not a big deal: if the stipulation is that these items be worn at the appropriate activity consider that NBB is a once-a-year affair, and the Rangers are usually doing their thing so far out in the boonies that nobody's going to know anyway.

[LittleIronPilot]

^^The February 2008 proposed FEMA typing requires a Land SAR Team to have at least one First Responder, who has additional remote or wilderness-type training, per squad (a team is made up of one or more squads).

Mike

Yup...so things are gonna get interesting.

However I do not think this will be the *end* of Ground Teams, but it may severely limit who can serve on them and such. Also, not that that Land SAR reqs were also talking about....hold on....PHYSICAL FITNESS REQUIREMENTS!

[O-Rex]

^^The February 2008 proposed FEMA typing requires a Land SAR Team to have at least one First Responder, who has additional remote or wilderness-type training, per squad (a team is made up of one or more squads).

Mike

Yup...so things are gonna get interesting.

However I do not think this will be the *end* of Ground Teams, but it may severely limit who can serve on them and such. Also, not that that Land SAR reqs were also talking about....hold on....PHYSICAL FITNESS REQUIREMENTS!

I might be wrong, but the fitness requirements were left up to the individual agencies (?)

I saw the NIMS doc a couple of years ago, when it was in the proposal stage, and it was a little vague.

[Ned]

Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item.  Shoulder patch not counting.

I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have somthing they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)

Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.

You do know that there are over 20 different NCSAs, right?

And if you count all the different iterations of the same school (like the multiple flight academies or all the different courses at NESA), the number is closer to 40.

So, you're OK with over 20 different flavors of bling?

Really?



Just checking.

[sjtrupp]

Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item.  Shoulder patch not counting.

I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have something they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)

Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.

You do know that there are over 20 different NCSAs, right?

And if you count all the different iterations of the same school (like the multiple flight academies or all the different courses at NESA), the number is closer to 40.

So, you're OK with over 20 different flavors of bling?

Really?



Just checking.

I think that NESA should demand special bling if Hawk gets all of this approved.
 
Why should we grant all of this crap when plenty of other activities knew better then to issue junk that wasn't authorized?  Why should the activity that scoffed at the rules be allowed "special" privileges?

I don't see how the NB could stop any special bling for other National Activities if they approve this.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **

That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."

No patches. Things became ribbons that once were badges.

Same goes for the utility uniforms. There's too many patches when badges that mirror the blues badges should be used. There's too little uniformity in our heraldry, compared to the mothership.

I would advocate a wholesale cleanup, but that's beyond my pay grade.

** Of course, the Air Force needs to get back to it, too. McPeak wasn't all wrong, just partially.

[afgeo4]

WOW!!!    George and I agree on something....

We do. It's called PJOC and no "special" uniform items are authorized for its graduates aside from a patch and you know what.... That's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.

Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.

I wish I knew where... I went back and found something I wrote a year ago in the CAP Rangers thread on this very subject.

I think PJOC is an excellent example of my original message regarding elitism and CAP's Ranger program.

Prior to every special activity getting an NCSA patch for their right shoulder, PJOC was the ideal "hooah course" without a single bell or whistle.  PJOC is NOT an emergency services course, however, I think most would agree that there are aspects of PJOC that are beneficial to field work. 

Over the past 15 years as a senior working directly with cadets at the squadron level, I have had as many as 20 of my cadets go to PJOC.  None of them ever came back with a single elitist attitude.  There wasn't even a title for them other than "PJOC graduate".  Heck, I even had an [advanced] PJOC failure come back.  Talk about a true humbling experience.  No berets, no special badges, and not a single chip on their shoulder.  In fact, more than anything, I think it was a gut check and humbling experience.  If the young teenager had any sort of swagger before hand, for no reason, they certainly had a reason upon their return.  However, I have yet to see one.

I remember PJOC giving out a Pararescue lapel pin or tie tack; not even allowed on the uniform.  Just a small thing to bring home and throw on a book bag or on the bookshelf.

No uniform accoutrements, not even a high speed title like "Ranger".  I think that speaks for itself.

FYI: I'm doing a print screen on this and framing it on my wall... Who knows when or if it'll happen again?

I just think this is a good reflection on the cadre of the activities. PJ's who silently go above and beyond each and every day and CAP "Rangers" who boldly wear their bling each day while using their training maybe once or twice in their careers.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item.  Shoulder patch not counting.

I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have somthing they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)

Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.

You do know that there are over 20 different NCSAs, right?

And if you count all the different iterations of the same school (like the multiple flight academies or all the different courses at NESA), the number is closer to 40.

So, you're OK with over 20 different flavors of bling?

Really?



Just checking.

Let me Clarify......ONE BERET, and then one Flash and pin for each of the NCSA's.

One Beret, One Flash and pin per beret.  Thats all.

[lordmonar]

Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **

That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."

Just got a new E-mail from the CMSAF.....the pre Mc [I can't say his name]ck uniform is coming back.  No time line on it....just that they are kicking around the feed back from the Mitchel/Arnold uniform proposals.

[mikeylikey]

Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **

That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."

Just got a new E-mail from the CMSAF.....the pre Mc [I can't say his name]ck uniform is coming back.  No time line on it....just that they are kicking around the feed back from the Mitchel/Arnold uniform proposals.

Is this on the AF portal somehwere? 

[afgeo4]

Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **

That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."

Just got a new E-mail from the CMSAF.....the pre Mc [I can't say his name]ck uniform is coming back.  No time line on it....just that they are kicking around the feed back from the Mitchel/Arnold uniform proposals.

You mean the same exact uniform our cadets still wear? The blue version of Army greens... xcept they killed those too? I actually don't know if that's a good idea or not. I do think the fabrics need to be reworked and some new features added, but overall... it's not a bad look, albeit a lil bit "I Love Genie".

[MIKE]

Drifting.

[Hawk200]

Let me Clarify......ONE BERET, and then one Flash and pin for each of the NCSA's.

One Beret, One Flash and pin per beret.  Thats all.

Not a bad idea. One beret, activity designated by different flashes and pinned on insignia. Put it out there like that, "Activity may designate a beret with a flash, a crest, or combination thereof."

One activity might want to only go with a crest whereas another might wish to use only a flash, and a third might use a flash and crest together.

The Hawk people could use a basic flash, and then different color crests to designate progression. A bronze crest for some lower levels, silver for intermediate, a gold one for advanced.

NBB could use what they've been doing for years. A beret with only a crest. They don't seem to have any levels, so what they have works.

Hawk ought to use a single patch with maybe rockers for the levels instead of a patch, and tabs, and a hat, and a belt, and a scarf, and whistles, etc.....

I would suggest no rank insignia at all, regardless of activity.

Just a few ideas to clean up the bling. You'd only be looking in one place to figure out which activity, instead of all over the uniform.

[maverik]

^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey. 

hey hey now this is still a Civil Air Patrol forum and there must be respect for your fellow members and officers, if you were to say that in real life you'd be punished at wing level. Respectfully check yourself.

[mikeylikey]

^ I meant gRey....grey.  Stonewall is like in his 30's.  He's OLD.   

[maverik]

so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??

This is the perfect answer for what I would like to explain. If you have gone to ranger school.(i.e. army) you wear the the tab for as long as your in the army. As for the hats being rolled that's pride which they should have not many people go to hawk or PJOC. Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.

[maverik]

I have a question here in the NEC Agenda Item 5 page 17 paragraph three first,second,third,and fourth  sentences. it says and I qoute "Orange baseball cap-worn with black squadron numerals. Permanent staff members will wear orange hat with red keystone. Expert rangers will wear orange baseball cap with balck keystone. Cadet and Senior officers wear cloth grade insignia on the keystone when wearing the BDU uniform." now what do the "enlisted ranks" wear on their hat??

[mikeylikey]

^ Nothing. 

[Gunner C]

so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??

This is the perfect answer for what I would like to explain. If you have gone to ranger school.(i.e. army) you wear the the tab for as long as your in the army. As for the hats being rolled that's pride which they should have not many people go to hawk or PJOC. Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.

If it's a good thing, then let's put everyone on ground teams in an orange hat - not just the boys & girls from Hawk.

GC

[RogueLeader]

Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.

Also note that all GTM in the field are to be wearing a reflective vest over BDU's anyway. 

Now.  Tell me why HM needs to have so many ways to say that "I was at hawk mountain!"  I understand the need for bling, I like a bit of it myself, but there comes to be a point that it is too garish.  Hawk mountain goes that far.