Hawk and NBB bling clarification on NEC agenda

[CadetProgramGuy]

in sarmed's ideal world "elite CAP team members would be:
Probabally not cadets (at least under 18)
They would  hold qualifications/capabilites like:
Hold technical level training acording to the NFPA 1670 giuidelines for most of the likely encountered search environments...Rope, wilderness, collapse, water
EMT
HAZMAT ops level
be 72 hours self sustaining
be capable of operting in most any environment hot/cold , wet/arid, mountainous etc
be able to do things like parachute, fast rope, scuba, small boat operations
radio communications
air to ground coordination (ie FAC)
cross trained as a/c observers/scanners

...thats as likely as any of the assorted schools become "elite" training programs

mk

I guess other than not having the NFPA stuff and the parachute, fast rope, scuba, small boat operations, I should be an elitist......cause I have every thing else on the list done.......

[Stonewall]

WOW!!!    George and I agree on something....

We do. It's called PJOC and no "special" uniform items are authorized for its graduates aside from a patch and you know what.... That's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.

Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.

I wish I knew where... I went back and found something I wrote a year ago in the CAP Rangers thread on this very subject.

I think PJOC is an excellent example of my original message regarding elitism and CAP's Ranger program.

Prior to every special activity getting an NCSA patch for their right shoulder, PJOC was the ideal "hooah course" without a single bell or whistle.  PJOC is NOT an emergency services course, however, I think most would agree that there are aspects of PJOC that are beneficial to field work. 

Over the past 15 years as a senior working directly with cadets at the squadron level, I have had as many as 20 of my cadets go to PJOC.  None of them ever came back with a single elitist attitude.  There wasn't even a title for them other than "PJOC graduate".  Heck, I even had an [advanced] PJOC failure come back.  Talk about a true humbling experience.  No berets, no special badges, and not a single chip on their shoulder.  In fact, more than anything, I think it was a gut check and humbling experience.  If the young teenager had any sort of swagger before hand, for no reason, they certainly had a reason upon their return.  However, I have yet to see one.

I remember PJOC giving out a Pararescue lapel pin or tie tack; not even allowed on the uniform.  Just a small thing to bring home and throw on a book bag or on the bookshelf.

No uniform accoutrements, not even a high speed title like "Ranger".  I think that speaks for itself.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I think it's great to have a school that deals intensely with CAP's emergency services missions -- hell, I think we need everyone involved in those, especially with the onset of NIMS training! -- but this whole "elite" idea is superfluous, especially when it could be ANYONE who gets the 3 a.m. call to deploy. ICs aren't looking for someone who wears a bib scarf and a patch. (Those items aren't noted on anyone's callout roster, are they?)

Specializing in a given CAP mission is fine, but anything that feeds a member's ego in some way should be handled differently than with numerous additional uniform devices, especially when they're ridiculous to begin with. The ribbon on the blues ought to be enough. There's too many BDU patches out there as it is, and CAP really needs to clean up the utility uniforms.

Interestingly, I don't think I've seen too many Florida "rangers." Hawk, a few...

[RiverAux]

If any school should, shouldn't it be our National Emergency Services Academy that should get such special consideration? 

[Stonewall]

If any school should, shouldn't it be our National Emergency Services Academy that should get such special consideration? 

NESA is probably one of the best activities as far as getting a recognizable skill set, with an official piece of bling.  Go to NESA and you walk out with things such as a ground team badge and observer wings.  And that's excatly the way it should be.  Oh, and don't forget the NCSA patch, but that's optional.

Hawk should model itself similar to the Army Mountain Warfare School that has summer and winter courses that are 14 days each.  Learn lots of specialized skills associated with being an Infantry soldier, yet there's no bling attached.

[RiverAux]

To be clear, I wasn't proposing that NESA get extra bling, but just that if any NCSA should get extra, that it should be that one rather than Hawk and especially over blue beret. 

[Stonewall]

To be clear, I wasn't proposing that NESA get extra bling, but just that if any NCSA should get extra, that it should be that one rather than Hawk and especially over blue beret. 

Understood what you were saying, and in case I didn't make myself clear, I was agreeing with you.  Maybe I wasn't clear  but yeah, I agreed with you.  Amazing, we agree on something and it throws us out of whack.

[RiverAux]

I guess NESA isn't really an NCSA.  Disregard that.

[jb512]

No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.

I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough". 

. . .

When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.

"Remember, it's not how you play, it's how you look."

I was a Special Forces soldier for 20 years.  If you want to look elite, go to the PX/BX and buy up all the bling you can find.  If you want to be something, then be one of the types of people you mention above.  You have a 99% chance of not making it, but at least you'll have tried.  DO NOT try to equate the well meaning but flacid programs of the Civil Air Patrol to real warriors.  You'll get laughed at every time.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make that reference. 

CAP has no programs that come remotely close to the RM's special forces/special ops and was not the point of the post.  We do have our own programs though that serve our needs.

[Stonewall]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make that reference. 

CAP has no programs that come remotely close to the RM's special forces/special ops and was not the point of the post.  We do have our own programs though that serve our needs.

True.  And if anyone is interested, the issue of comparing CAP Rangers to RM Special Ops was discussed in this thread last year.

[mikeylikey]

All of this discussion is great, but in August, I have a very good feeling that all this bling will be approved.  

So, just get ready for your cadets to come to you with the Ranger Third Class paperwork in their hand, and asking you for your signature.  The following week they will be wearing a "Ranger 3rd Class" badge on their BDU's and those that attended NBB will be wearing their berets everywhere.

It would have been nice to get away from adding more bling to the Uniform, but that is not our leaders intentions.

I just don't understand why a patch is not good enough for all these people.  I have nothing wrong with the NCSA NBB and HAWK patches (when they are worn in accordance with 39-1 of course).    

[lordmonar]

I just don't understand why a patch is not good enough for all these people.  I have nothing wrong with the NCSA NBB and HAWK patches (when they are worn in accordance with 39-1 of course).

Human psychology.

[LittleIronPilot]

I just don't understand why a patch is not good enough for all these people.  I have nothing wrong with the NCSA NBB and HAWK patches (when they are worn in accordance with 39-1 of course).   

I concur. I want to attend HMRS as a Senior...but other than the patch and an anotation in my CAPF45B, know one would know I went.

Someone did bring up the Medic Tab....get ready for it. Read the new NIMS qual...a ground team MUST have a medical person on the crew. So we better start training them!

[arajca]

The background on the agenda item says:

Quote
In August 2006 the National Board approved a motion to authorize members attending
Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain to wear any awarded uniform items or headgear with the
BDUs or CAP field uniform.
It does not allow for wearing of ranger bling by any other method, only by actually attend Hawk Mtn. The folks in FL would not be able to wear the ranger bling since the did not go to Hawk Mtn for the training.


Quote
Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria.  The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling"  HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.

I still have to says its now both...maybe under the poorly worded NB ruling its only from graduating the school, but the way the NEC seems worded it says "...authorize the following items for wear:"..it doesnt say "...authorize the following for wear only if you graduated from the NCSA..."

Here is the "poorly worded" NB action:

ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED

Where is national Hawk Mountain training offered besides the Hawk Mtn NCSA? Following your logic, if I do the same training as NBB, I can wear the beret - even if I do not go to the activity.

[sarmed1]

Ultimately we will have to wait and see what the NEC ruling says.  ie...if it passes if the wording change to 39-1 says only the following items are authorized for wear on the uniform, or upon completion of the NCSA the following awards are authorized to be worn.   Based on my experience with the program the push is for option 1: not limited to only the NCSA participants.

mk

[CadetProgramGuy]

Someone did bring up the Medic Tab....get ready for it. Read the new NIMS qual...a ground team MUST have a medical person on the crew. So we better start training them!

Not having the NIMS requirements in front of me, what exactly do they call for in "medical Training"?  First Aid or First responder?

[lordmonar]

The NIMS requirements just say that each ground team would have a "medic". 

The kicker here will be CAP's liability.  Up till now CAP has been saying we don't have medics....we can only perform life saving first aid that falls under the Good Samaritan Statutes.

Now we got FEMA saying if you have ground teams you got to have "medics" (i.e. a person who's job is to provide medical assistance to some one.)  Even if it is just Red Cross Basic First Aid....we are crossing over the line between lay person and professional provider.

This particular standard more than any thing else could spell the end of CAP Ground Teams.

[sardak]

^^The February 2008 proposed FEMA typing requires a Land SAR Team to have at least one First Responder, who has additional remote or wilderness-type training, per squad (a team is made up of one or more squads).

Mike

[sarmed1]

...one thing I would be happy to see them put in is a phase out statement...  basically eliminating the uniform bling upon phase in of the ABU.  They (HMRS) have until that time to develop a "Ranger" specific badge that conforms to the AF standard for the ABU.

Why a HMRS badge (I know one more piece of Ranger Bling) mostly because I think if you dont create something for HMRS, this debate will go on forever from each side.  Hawk will want orange stuff as long as its not approved, once its approved all the anti-bling people will campaign for abolishment of it.  IT WILL NEVER END WITHOUT COMPROMISE!   

That would solve most of these problems once and for all and we can go back to worrying imnportant stuff like training and competency without people getting their panties bunched over unimportant issues like I can or you cant wear this cool or not cool thing.

ie the NIMS requirements and how is anyone going to accomplish that! (sorry just couldnt resist the tie in to the last 3 posts)

mk

[CadetProgramGuy]

Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item.  Shoulder patch not counting.

I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have somthing they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)

Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.