Hawk and NBB bling clarification on NEC agenda

[mikeylikey]

If I'm not mistaken, I've seen lots of Hawk Rangers and NBB folks wearing their garb, whatever it may be, in the field.

And that is just wrong.  They are in clear violation of National regs, not to mention common sense!

[arajca]

2. Since only Hawk Mtn qualifies for ranger tabs and it is only offered once per year why should the tabs be authorized? They have no practical purpose outside of Hawk Mtn. Hawk grads already get the patch.

I think I addressed this in another thread (or maybe on cadet stuff), but to re-clarify.  Ranger ratings can be (and are) awarded all year long on and off the mountain.  Someone of the next higher ranger grade can sign off skills for the grades below them.  Once the testing sheet is completed it is forwarded to the stan eval officer and a rating order is published.  The only exceptions are certain expert ranger ratings (ie edible plants, firearms and rope skills require special instructors) and the rope skills of the ranger advanced rating.
I amnot sure anymore, but in years passed the squadron commander could sign off on the R/2 sheet skills even if they are not an R/1 or above.

The proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.
[/quote]

[lordmonar]

Unlike HAWK and NBB, they need no advertising, and their bling only goes to drive divisions between those that went and everyone else.

Strange...I got one cadet out of 38 who went to NBB and wears his beret.......I can't find this dividion you speak of.

But I got a lot of younger cadets who want to go the NBB as soon as they can.

[sarmed1]

The proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.

I dont see it that way

PROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee codify the previous National Board action and
request Air Force approval to authorize the following items for wear with the BDU and field
uniforms only.

Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria.  The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling"  HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.

3. Speaking of tabs, the medic tabs really serve no purpose because CAP does not have a medic qualification.

...6 of one 1/2 dozen of another...they dont have a Ranger qualification either...just one at HMRS, if you are going ot acknowledge one is ok you might as well authorize them all.

mk

[JohnKachenmeister]

The proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.

I dont see it that way

PROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee codify the previous National Board action and
request Air Force approval to authorize the following items for wear with the BDU and field
uniforms only.

Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria.  The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling"  HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.

3. Speaking of tabs, the medic tabs really serve no purpose because CAP does not have a medic qualification.

...6 of one 1/2 dozen of another...they dont have a Ranger qualification either...just one at HMRS, if you are going ot acknowledge one is ok you might as well authorize them all.

mk

Actually, the Air Force, in an AFI I read once, refers to employment of "CAP Ranger Teams" in support of SAR missions.  Apparently, all ground teams are "Rangers" as far as the USAF is willing to consider.

[mikeylikey]

^ A throwback to old terminology.  I would even go as far as saying that pub was not updated as CAP lost its old "Ranger Teams". 

[lordmonar]

PAWG has always wanted to export the ranger program.

[isuhawkeye]

they have exported it to florida, and the North west

[Gunner C]

No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.

I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough". 

. . .

When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.

"Remember, it's not how you play, it's how you look."

I was a Special Forces soldier for 20 years.  If you want to look elite, go to the PX/BX and buy up all the bling you can find.  If you want to be something, then be one of the types of people you mention above.  You have a 99% chance of not making it, but at least you'll have tried.  DO NOT try to equate the well meaning but flacid programs of the Civil Air Patrol to real warriors.  You'll get laughed at every time.

I already have a REAL problem with PAWG using the term Ranger.  They are not rangers.  Not even close.  I don't think that 90% of them could survive the Mountain Phase at Camp Merrill.

If you want to be "elite" (which we never referred to ourselves as) then go do something that might reflect it.

BTW, I never shaved a beret in my entire career.  That was for RASHs (Rear Area [Stuff] Heads).  BTW, mine was green, in case you didn't catch the Special Forces reference above.  Sorry I'm being harsh, but that's the way it really is.  This crap that the NEC is trying to push through is people trying to be someone without paying the price.

Lt Col Hawkeye Pierce
Master Parachutist
Special Forces Soldier and Special Forces Officer
Former Demolition Sergeant
Former Communications Sergeant
Former Intelligence Sergeant
Former Team Sergeant
Former Detachment Commander
Master Military Freefall Parachutist (with combat jump)
Pathfinder
Sniper
German Linguist
Spanish Linguist
(Other Stuff Not To Be Listed Here)

[lordmonar]

Gunner C,

I would agree with you if anyone was trying to equate NBB or HMRC with U.S. Army Rangers, Special Forces, or USAF PJs.

That seems to be the hang up.

A HMRC Ranger....is just that a HMRC Ranger and nothing more.

[mikeylikey]

^ Funny, the Ranger grade says "Ranger", not "Hawk Mountain Ranger".  You can earn Ranger grade and bling and badges without ever stepping foot on HAWK MTN.  That is the hang up.  Once this goes National, everyone and their mother will be able to put "Ranger Third Class" tabs on their BDU's.  Have you seen what you need to do to sew on the ranger bling??  Pushups, a run, and a SQD Commanders signature.  (Man, that really qualifies someone!)

[isuhawkeye]

I have my opinions of the Hawk mountain program, but I must wonder.  What qualifies a "Ranger" program as an insult to military rangers.  After all The National park service has rangers, and the term was used long before Darby organized his rangers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger

[PA Guy]

I have my opinions of the Hawk mountain program, but I must wonder.  What qualifies a "Ranger" program as an insult to military rangers.  After all The National park service has rangers, and the term was used long before Darby organized his rangers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger

The typical NPS ranger doesn't wear BDUs and associate themselves with a military service and it's members don't run around with tac vests/LBE while wearing berets. It is the military association combined with the term ranger that make some people uncomfortable with the terms use in CAP.  Also, the insufferable attitude some graduates come home with doesn't help either.

[MIKE]

Here we go again. 

[lordmonar]

^ Funny, the Ranger grade says "Ranger", not "Hawk Mountain Ranger".  You can earn Ranger grade and bling and badges without ever stepping foot on HAWK MTN.  That is the hang up.  Once this goes National, everyone and their mother will be able to put "Ranger Third Class" tabs on their BDU's.  Have you seen what you need to do to sew on the ranger bling??  Pushups, a run, and a SQD Commanders signature.  (Man, that really qualifies someone!)

Same thing can be said about any qualification.......so again I say....what's the problem?

[arajca]

The proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.

I dont see it that way

PROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee codify the previous National Board action and
request Air Force approval to authorize the following items for wear with the BDU and field
uniforms only.

The background on the agenda item says:

In August 2006 the National Board approved a motion to authorize members attending
Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain to wear any awarded uniform items or headgear with the
BDUs or CAP field uniform.

It does not allow for wearing of ranger bling by any other method, only by actually attend Hawk Mtn. The folks in FL would not be able to wear the ranger bling since the did not go to Hawk Mtn for the training.

Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria.  The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling"  HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.

The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.

[JC004]

The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.

'round here, rules were made to be broken, to spite the applicable block in Section III of the CAPF 2b.   

[afgeo4]

No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.

I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough". 

Heaven forbid. 

We're stuck with cheesy smurf blue patches and grey slides and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it.  The USAFAUX advocates may flame me, but at least the new corporate white/blues is a step toward a clean, professional looking uniform without all the lettering everywhere.  When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.

Everyone complains about low standards in CAP, but when someone raises the bar and wants to award people for going the distance they complain.  Give it a rest and recognize those guys for what they're doing.  I know that if I ever crash, I'd want them to come looking for me...

On that note, I like the way that our GSARSS here in TXWG do it, nice and simple.  They wear solid black ball caps with their GT badge on it.  Looks good.

/rant

We do. It's called PJOC and no "special" uniform items are authorized for its graduates aside from a patch and you know what.... That's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.

Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.

[sarmed1]

The background on the agenda item says:

Quote
In August 2006 the National Board approved a motion to authorize members attending
Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain to wear any awarded uniform items or headgear with the
BDUs or CAP field uniform.
It does not allow for wearing of ranger bling by any other method, only by actually attend Hawk Mtn. The folks in FL would not be able to wear the ranger bling since the did not go to Hawk Mtn for the training.


Quote
Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria.  The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling"  HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.

I still have to says its now both...maybe under the poorly worded NB ruling its only from graduating the school, but the way the NEC seems worded it says "...authorize the following items for wear:"..it doesnt say "...authorize the following for wear only if you graduated from the NCSA..."

[sarmed1]

That's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.

I have to call no joy here.....not to seem like getting into a peeing match.  PJOC is no more elite than HMRS, Blue Beret or any of the other "xxOC's"

PJ's are elite.  A one week course of PT, rappeling, land nav & teamwork/leadership no matter who teaches the course does not make you elite.  Not to mention that other than the "learning" experience you receive no qualification from it.

Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.

I may have missed the memo that sayed treat PJOC grads as the elite of CAP.  The same argument against HMRS applies to everyone else: they accomplished nothing more than go to a school for a week, they may have had personal gains, realized things about themself and accomplished things they didnt think they could do....that doesnt make them special or elite.   A blind cadet that makes it thru encampemnt could hold the same standard....
I'd say the best argument you can make (mind you all I dont disagree either) is that PJOC grads are told to make nothing special of themselves afterwards...something that seems to fall by the wayside somehow with HMRS.  PJOC bragging rights...more in line with the quite proffesional theory of SpecOps....elite though, thats a bit of a stretch.

I would have to agree/lean with one of the previous posts (I think it was Stonewall) make a true elite unit of people that meet some serious qualifications in the SAR areana and have them available as  "special teams"  I would be willing to call them elite...if all you have to do is show up at an activity and not go home early...thats not going to cut it.....

in sarmed's ideal world "elite CAP team members would be:
Probabally not cadets (at least under 18)
They would  hold qualifications/capabilites like:
Hold technical level training acording to the NFPA 1670 giuidelines for most of the likely encountered search environments...Rope, wilderness, collapse, water
EMT
HAZMAT ops level
be 72 hours self sustaining
be capable of operting in most any environment hot/cold , wet/arid, mountainous etc
be able to do things like parachute, fast rope, scuba, small boat operations
radio communications
air to ground coordination (ie FAC)
cross trained as a/c observers/scanners

...thats as likely as any of the assorted schools become "elite" training programs

mk