Hawk and NBB bling clarification on NEC agenda

[maverik]

so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??

This is the perfect answer for what I would like to explain. If you have gone to ranger school.(i.e. army) you wear the the tab for as long as your in the army. As for the hats being rolled that's pride which they should have not many people go to hawk or PJOC. Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.

If it's a good thing, then let's put everyone on ground teams in an orange hat - not just the boys & girls from Hawk.

GC

exactly what I mean too we need more reflective and save the camo for base ops.

Fixed quote - MIKE

[DNall]

CAP is not a SaR organization. It is a para-military organization affiliated with the Air Force that happens to do some SaR work, along with several other types of ES, which all tolled is only part of the mission.

Don't even for a minute tell me orange hats/shirts, and certainly not any of that other crap, is for safety. It's not. It's to make people feel special, which that are not. And it's a gross & intentional violation of uniform regs which invalidates insurance coverage, so in fact is much more dangerous for the member in the long run. And not remotely approved by the AF, I might add.

PJOC is an orientation course that kids pay to go attend. It's not a major accomplishment. People aren't standing there for graduation on a broken leg they've been rucking on for weeks. They aren't under min weight standards cause they've barely eaten in weeks. They haven't been taken to the brink of death, refused to quit, and then emerged hardened. Neither hawk mountain or PJOC is anything like such a forging process, and they need to quit ripping things off from ranger school (like rolled hats) cause they don't remotely deserve it for playing around in the woods with some kids. Grow up & find your place in the world, that's my message to them.

Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.

IMO, all NCSAs should be reduced to a rocker tab, pick two, worn over the wing patch (if worn) on BDU/BBDU only. 

[CASH172]

Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.

There's a lot more history to that beret than you might know.  http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm

[Stonewall]

You know why cadets want to wear this stuff?  Because a long time ago, some senior member that cadets looked up to told them it was the cool thing to do.  It happens all the time, young people are very impressionable.  Look at my experience, I convinced cadets under my command for years that it is better to wear less and demonstrate your knowledge and skills through actions rather than accoutrements.

I see it all the time.  See how often a squadron's cadets take after their leadership.  It's a natural occurrence.  I just hope the senior members leading such cadets are telling them the right things that are cool.

[lordmonar]

Is it not possible to show your knowledge and skills through actions......AND still have the accourtrements?

Sure....just pinning on a GTM or Wings does not make your a Ground Pounding Wizard nor a Sierra Hotel Fighter Ace....but why not some bling?

I agree the Hawk Mountain folks go too far....but we can compromise.

Sure unit identity is important....but again I say....if you want all your squadron members wearing the same hat.....you tell them all to wear the same hat.  It's that simple.

If you have gone out of your way to develope a program that takes the standard GT training to a higher level.....additional recognition may be warented.

Should we alllow one wing to get extra bling just because....no of course not.  But we can certainly give tools to the wing commanders so they can motivate all their personnel.

Bling works for that.  It does not spin everyone's clock.  But you would not ask a carpenter to refrain from using a particular tool because you don't like it.

For those who think we are "stealing" the glory of real rangers because we want to call our ground teams rangers.....well I can see where you are going with that...but to be truely honest you will then have to go after all  our pilots for calling them selves "mission pilots" because they are stealing the glory of "real USAF" pilots.

No one has a lock on the cool factor....and being anti-bling can be just as arrogant as being a bling hog.

[Stonewall]

^^^Two different thought processes here.  I'd say mine is better, you'll say yours is.  I know one thing, mine costs less.

[PA Guy]

Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.

There's a lot more history to that beret than you might know.  http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm

The NBB NCSA bears little resemblance to the original program.  Today it is nothing more than a UDF exercise with the chance to look at some really great aircraft.  It also provides the chance for cadets to practice their leadership skills.  But to think of it as some kind of high speed, hard core program that produces super troops is just wishful thinking. Be content with the NCSA patch and let it go at that.

[DNall]

Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.

There's a lot more history to that beret than you might know.  http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm

I know what the history is. We've always done it doesn't make for good justification.

I got no problem with a blue beret in uniform, I think it looks fine. The issue is this one event is in no way deserving of such a distinction. Which only serves to inspire every other yahoo (hawk) to want to wear whatever silly thing they come up with.

As a long time cadet programs officer, this is right on:

You know why cadets want to wear this stuff?  Because a long time ago, some senior member that cadets looked up to told them it was the cool thing to do.  It happens all the time, young people are very impressionable.  Look at my experience, I convinced cadets under my command for years that it is better to wear less and demonstrate your knowledge and skills through actions rather than accoutrements.

I see it all the time.  See how often a squadron's cadets take after their leadership.  It's a natural occurrence.  I just hope the senior members leading such cadets are telling them the right things that are cool.

You'd have to have "cool" senior members for that to be the case, which might be a problem at times.

No one has a lock on the cool factor....and being anti-bling can be just as arrogant as being a bling hog.

I'm not completely against items for the right reason, and when the degree of accomplishment is sufficient to warrant it in the real world, not just cause I have a shortage of people willing to do something. However, that bling needs to be understated, and within the example set for us by the AF. And, it can't ever be a locally made up or stretching the limits of the reg to justify item.

Try rewarding people with responsibility once in a while, or put them in for a commendation, give them a coin, pat them on the back & say thanks, pull them up in front of the formation & shake their hand. You don't need shiny badges & funny hats or color explosion patch covered girl scout uniforms to motivate people. For as much as that motivates some people, it demotivates a lot of people that have to stand next to the monstrosity.

[Stonewall]

Try rewarding people with responsibility once in a while, or put them in for a commendation, give them a coin, pat them on the back & say thanks, pull them up in front of the formation & shake their hand.

Done all of the above and am living proof that it works.  Even had 150 Ground Operations Coins made, some people on this site even have one or two.  I had to sell a few to help pay for the cost of making them; but I awarded about 50 or so to deserving people; for things like heading a weekend FTX or being on staff at MER SAR College.  Works way better than blingage.

And for the record, like DNall, I'm not opposed to some pieces of bling, even berets. 

[lordmonar]

I too use all the tools in the bag to motivate and reward.

But the anti-bling attitude also sweeps into awarding ribbons and coins.

And as for following AF taditions an examples....they have this same argument over everthing from berets, SERE arcs, army combat patches, CIBs and a host of other things.

[LittleIronPilot]

LOL..I will say this, last night I came home from our squadron meeting. I do not have Blues yet, and I am getting sick of the gray slacks/blue polo combo, so I wore my BDU's.

When I came home I was wearing my cap and my wife said "Is that always how you wear your hat"? I was like, ummm yeah, why?

Well she said I looked like a dork! LOL  Then I looked in the mirror and I agreed! LOL

The way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.

Then I ranger-rolled it and she was like "now THAT looks good!".

I have to concur. Yes I will follow the regs, yes I will look like a goof, but the ranger-roll looks SOOOOOO much better.

[SARMedTech]

When I was in college, I had a professor who would write on the top of a bad research paper the following statement: "This has an extraordinarily high Who Gives a S*** Factor." I think this thread may be approaching that point.

[cnitas]

LOL..I will say this, last night I came home from our squadron meeting. I do not have Blues yet, and I am getting sick of the gray slacks/blue polo combo, so I wore my BDU's.

When I came home I was wearing my cap and my wife said "Is that always how you wear your hat"? I was like, ummm yeah, why?

Well she said I looked like a dork! LOL  Then I looked in the mirror and I agreed! LOL

The way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.

Then I ranger-rolled it and she was like "now THAT looks good!".

And then what happened? 

[Stonewall]

The way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.

You mean, the right way?  No one in the AF, except maybe a former Army guy here and there (few and far between) ranger rolls their BDU cap.

Take picture of you in your BDU cap with and without a ranger roll, let us be the judge of what looks dorky. 

[Hawk200]

You mean, the right way?  No one in the AF, except maybe a former Army guy here and there (few and far between) ranger rolls their BDU cap.

Never did in the Air Force, and don't now in the Army. Kinda pointless, it's not meant to wear fancy, it's just a hat. Some people think it looks hi-speed, but it really makes most look like posers.

[DNall]

When I was in college, I had a professor who would write on the top of a bad research paper the following statement: "This has an extraordinarily high Who Gives a S*** Factor." I think this thread may be approaching that point.

I give a S***, for a few reasons.

1) Willful violation of regs, including uniform regs, is dang near a capital offense that can really wreck CAP in a lot of ways. No one's ego is worth that.

2) People dressing like idiots & then claiming to be on the same level as me makes me look like an incompetent girl scout idiot that's not capable of finding my own way out of a paper bag. That voids all the hard work & dedication I've put in so this moron can think he looks cool.

3) Posers are posers, regardless of what institutional support you put behind them. CAP as a whole already has to fight this reputation with persistent quiet professionalism. Again, that's voided in all its parts by boisterous blow hards.

4) Use of these items versus the good rewards I mentioned is a reflection of very poor leadership taken beyond the one-idiot level to the insititution. That cycle has to be confronted, not lifted up.

5) Given these facts, it is a very poor sign post for the big picture of CAP that these items or behavior would be allowed to continue.

[lordmonar]

The way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.

You mean, the right way?  No one in the AF, except maybe a former Army guy here and there (few and far between) ranger rolls their BDU cap.

Take picture of you in your BDU cap with and without a ranger roll, let us be the judge of what looks dorky. 

Silver Flag cops at Creech AFB roll theirs....as do a lot of TACP and other SOF types.

[Stonewall]

Silver Flag cops at Creech AFB roll theirs....as do a lot of TACP and other SOF types.

And that makes it right how?

[lordmonar]

Silver Flag cops at Creech AFB roll theirs....as do a lot of TACP and other SOF types.

And that makes it right how?

Did not say it was "right"....but it invalidates your "none in the AF....ranger folls their BDU cap" statement.

This is an example of how un-up tight some USAF units are about uniforms.

Air Crew roll their sleeves and wear their morale patches.  SOF forces push up their BDU sleeves.  Lots of unit have completely illegal unit T-shirts, and some USAF unit ranger roll their hats.

If you want to use the "but the USAF does not do that" argument....you will find that day to day USAF is just as bad as CAP when it comes to this sort of stuff.

[DNall]

One of the prime reasons behind the "ranger roll" is actually an attempt to crush the top of the hat so it breaks up the visible line. IE - more camo. Rangers do that cause they can wear soft caps in a combat environment, were regular soldiers can't. Now do that with an orange hat & shirt - see what an idiot that person looks like now?

If you're serving in the military in a ground combat capacity, and have been to real Army ranger school, SFAS, indoc, or the like, then fine. You can get away with it, just like SF can grow beards. If not, you need to get the stupid slapped out of your head.

I'm in Army OCS right now. I got rangers in my class, both tabs & scrolls, and a group guy too. If any one of them wears their hat like that, we're all getting smoked for three hours. It's happened a couple times already. It won't be happening again. If it's not okay in that circumstance, in an infantry based program run by the US Army infantry school, then why would it be okay for some CAP program?