COMMENDATION AWARD

[JayT]

But, at least for a time, we WERE awarded "Regular" military medals.  My question is not whether a parallel system of awards is better or worse, but why a parallel system exists in the first place.

The only advantage I could see is that members of the AF would recognize ribbons at a glance.  Right now, CAP officers wearing ribbons cannot be "Read" by AF folk, because they can't tell a Silver Medal of Valor from a bag of groceries.  Having AF standard ribbons would have more meaning in that context, at least.

Times and things change Major. The parallel system exists because we're a parallel organization, not quite civilians, not quite members of the Air Force. And, like I said, I believe theres other ways a CAP Senior Member or Cadet can be 'read' by Air Force guys. I've never met a military guy who's first reaction to me was to ask me what ribbons I have/what they mean.

I'm looking at an Air Force ribbon chart, and there's precious few medals I could see carrying over to CAP service. Would you honestly.........reduce the meaning of these medals so that your CAP ribbon rack can be 'read' better by RM guys?

Or, is it possible that RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms, and assume we had bastardized them for some other purpose. "No, really, this is the same as the medal on your rack........."

[cnitas]

...RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms,...

No.  Military awards and Decs are only allowed on the AF uniform.  So They would see their medals on their uniform.

I took a quick look at an AF awards list and there are about 10 or so that would be appropriate.

The real question is if we would trade in our gigantic ribbon stacks for the  4 or 5 'Real Military' awards most might earn over a CAP career.

[JayT]

...RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms,...

No.  Military awards and Decs are only allowed on the AF uniform.  So They would see their medals on their uniform.

I took a quick look at an AF awards list and there are about 10 or so that would be appropriate.

The real question is if we would trade in our gigantic ribbon stacks for the  4 or 5 'Real Military' awards most might earn over a CAP career.

I think you're missing the point here sir. These military decorations would replace our current CAP decorations. Thus would see their medals on their uniform, they would see their ribbons on CAP uniforms. A CAP uniform is a CAP uniform, it's just not the same as the AF uniform. I think pulling out the reg about mil decs on AF style uniforms is out of the spirite of it.


Is that a little clearer

[cnitas]

...RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms,...

No.  Military awards and Decs are only allowed on the AF uniform.  So They would see their medals on their uniform.

I took a quick look at an AF awards list and there are about 10 or so that would be appropriate.

The real question is if we would trade in our gigantic ribbon stacks for the  4 or 5 'Real Military' awards most might earn over a CAP career.

I think you're missing the point here sir. These military decorations would replace our current CAP decorations. Thus would see their medals on their uniform, they would see their ribbons on CAP uniforms. A CAP uniform is a CAP uniform, it's just not the same as the AF uniform. I think pulling out the reg about mil decs on AF style uniforms is out of the spirite of it.


Is that a little clearer

When you are saying 'our uniform' I was thinking you were referring to corporates.  Keep in mind that the AF style uniform is an AF uniform they are allowing us to wear.

But I do agree, the CAP uniform is different than a standard AF uniform.  Then again, a Navy uniform is different than an AF uniform, and the AF does not seem to have a problem with seeing many of the same decorations on their uniforms.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, no.  It isn't clearer.  At least it does not answer my question.

We are a parallel organization, sort of.  But since we perform AF missions, and we are NOT "AF Civilians" in the civil-service sense, we could just as easily be considered an unpaid extension of the AF reserve components, or, perhaps more accurately, the Auxiliary could be considered a component alongside the ANG and USAR.

In that context, why would we NOT be eligible for AF awards, and why would we need to have an awards program of our own?

I personally think that the CAP awards program was developed so that the "Wanna-be but never wuz" types can still look like a mix between Patton and Audie Murphy without the pesky annoyance of having to serve on active duty and in combat.  That is just my opinion, though.  I have no facts to back up that statement.

[cnitas]

I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. 

[Short Field]

  Keep in mind that the AF style uniform is an AF uniform they are allowing us to wear.

No, it is a AF style uniform - not a USAF uniform.  There is a difference.   

[Al Sayre]

I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. 

Why not, I went to tech school with a re-tread who had everything but the MOH from his time in Vietnam.  He said they didn't bother him too much in boot...

[JayT]

Well, no.  It isn't clearer.  At least it does not answer my question.

We are a parallel organization, sort of.  But since we perform AF missions, and we are NOT "AF Civilians" in the civil-service sense, we could just as easily be considered an unpaid extension of the AF reserve components, or, perhaps more accurately, the Auxiliary could be considered a component alongside the ANG and USAR.

In that context, why would we NOT be eligible for AF awards, and why would we need to have an awards program of our own?

I personally think that the CAP awards program was developed so that the "Wanna-be but never wuz" types can still look like a mix between Patton and Audie Murphy without the pesky annoyance of having to serve on active duty and in combat.  That is just my opinion, though.  I have no facts to back up that statement.

To me, sir, and don't take offensive to this please, saying that we're 'an unpaid extension' of the Reserve or the ANG is more of a 'wannabe but never wuz' stance then wanting to have our own awards. CAP 'could' be considered a lot of things. We could be seen as an extension of the boy scouts (joint charter squadrons.) We could be considered etc etc etc.

However, we aren't really any of those things. We are what we are, and we do what we do (very well.) While I would absolutely support creating CAP into the USAF(VR)T, it's not what it is now. For whatever reason, we have lost a lot of our military connections over the years. I guess the fundamental difference in our point of views comes from the fact you were around before those changes occured, while I showed up after.

[Hawk200]

  Keep in mind that the AF style uniform is an AF uniform they are allowing us to wear.

No, it is a AF style uniform - not a USAF uniform.  There is a difference.   

That's been addressed before, Kach was the one who posted the excerpt from the Congressional charter of "authorized to wear an Air Force uniform with CAP distinctive insignia". Our blues uniforms have to have Air Force certification labels. They are Air Force uniforms. I've used the term "Air Force variant". I don't think the term will catch on, but it's more accurate.

[Flying Pig]

So since the Coast Guard Aux are awarded Coast Guard decorations, does them being part of DHS make that easier?  I could have definitely seen the Humanitarian Medal awarded during Katrina.

[JayT]

So since the Coast Guard Aux are awarded Coast Guard decorations, does them being part of DHS make that easier?  I could have definitely seen the Humanitarian Medal awarded during Katrina.

I think in that case, the fact they're part of the Coast Guard is what makes it easier.

[Hawk200]

Judging from the last several posts, I think a few people would like to see a combination of Air Force awards and CAP ones.

There is merit in reducing our decs, getting rid of ones that are excessive or reducing a few of them to a single dec with additional clasps. For other things, AF awards would be fitting when we do the same work they do. As Kach pointed out, why should military get an HSM when we get something else for the same type of actions?

I think there is a happy medium somewhere, it's probably just a matter of finding it. Other things we would have to think about would be order of decs. Would we put all the military ones above CAP ones? Would we intermix the order? We have a listing of military decs in 39-1, should we work our decs into the mix?

I think a lot of the desire for AF decs is to be closer to the Air Force, feel as a part of the team. However, I'm certain that there are people that think it will make us better just because we have military awards, as Themann said. There are up and down sides to the concept.

....For whatever reason, we have lost a lot of our military connections over the years. I guess the fundamental difference in our point of views comes from the fact you were around before those changes occured, while I showed up after.

This points out a lot of the differences in the various generations we have in CAP. A lot of major differences we have on this board are a combination of this, as well as the differing backgrounds of military and non-military experience. Question is: How do we fit everyone into this culture?

[JayT]

Judging from the last several posts, I think a few people would like to see a combination of Air Force awards and CAP ones.

There is merit in reducing our decs, getting rid of ones that are excessive or reducing a few of them to a single dec with additional clasps. For other things, AF awards would be fitting when we do the same work they do. As Kach pointed out, why should military get an HSM when we get something else for the same type of actions?

I think there is a happy medium somewhere, it's probably just a matter of finding it. Other things we would have to think about would be order of decs. Would we put all the military ones above CAP ones? Would we intermix the order? We have a listing of military decs in 39-1, should we work our decs into the mix?

I think a lot of the desire for AF decs is to be closer to the Air Force, feel as a part of the team. However, I'm certain that there are people that think it will make us better just because we have military awards, as Themann said. There are up and down sides to the concept.

....For whatever reason, we have lost a lot of our military connections over the years. I guess the fundamental difference in our point of views comes from the fact you were around before those changes occured, while I showed up after.

This points out a lot of the differences in the various generations we have in CAP. A lot of major differences we have on this board are a combination of this, as well as the differing backgrounds of military and non-military experience. Question is: How do we fit everyone into this culture?

The only way to fit everyone in, I think, is to create own own culture. Create our own traditions, etc etc. We need to sort of dig our heels in and create something new and different.

[DNall]

I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. 

Talk about a CAP retention & mil recruiting incentive.

I do have a girl working for me that has airborne wings & hasn't been to AIT yet, I think that's pretty highspeed.

FO Therman,

First, you're pushing a wanna-be argument at several folks who currently are or have been in the military, with combat &/or leadership experience. They already have mil decs. If you'll slow your roll, you'll notice the discussion has nothing to do with being more like the military & a whole lot to do with making CAP better.

Second, CAP's place in the world. In the Army, we have a lesser developed total force model that says active, reserve, guard, civilian employees, contractors, & army volunteers. All of those people together are THE Army. There is one Army mission & one Army to accomplish it. Portions of that mission are distributed across the matrix of forces, and each unit/person plays it's cog-like role. Without each & every part doing its job, the machine fails, the mission fails, and people die. You can argue semantics all you want, but CAP is absolutely an extension of the AF by law & practice.

Third, it is, by law, an AF uniform, regardless of what distinctive stuff they decide should or should not be on it. That's why they have approval authority over it. That's why the same law that makes it a crime to impersonate a mil officer (including by wear of the uniform) also specifically covers Auxiliaries (CAP & CGAux).

Fourth, CAP members are ALREADY eligible for these awards, as are any other civilian. That is not the issue. The issue is having the approval authority at a reasonable level. You see, if a civilian employee does well, they can be approved for an award by the AF chain of command that's supervising them, just like if they were in the military. However, CAP is a direct reporting unit to HQ AF. The OPCON/ADCON are delegated, but HQ retains control. That means a nomination has to go thru the entire chain of command to the very top of the AF, even for the most routine of awards. That's a simple oversight that's easily fixed with a couple lines in a reg to say the approval levels are same as AF, following CAP-USAF CoC.

Fifth, there would still be CAP awards. There has to be. There's only a handful of AF decs that can be awarded to civilians, and that can only be for actions as a CAP member on AFAM or otherwise in support of AF. There still has to be CAP decs for CAP service/actions, and to cover the awards that can't be given to civilians.

Sixth, part of the reason for this is to incentivize participation by members of the mil.
If they get decs they can wear in the mil, and promotion points from those, that's huge. That's a population block that bring exceptional skills/experience to make us better, and such a minor change would bring thousands in & help retain them through their service & after.

Seventh, the reasons this change should happen... This is the govt recognizing your distinguished service/actions on their mission. It is not CAP patting itself on the back - which is completely meaningless to most people, even moreso when they don't know what all that crap means.

And finally, We can't create a stand alone culture of our own. We're not big enough or have enough synergy from having a bunch of people in one place or a common baseline life-change experience like basic trng. We are subordinate to the AF even more figuratively than we are literally.

[Hawk200]

The only way to fit everyone in, I think, is to create own own culture. Create our own traditions, etc etc. We need to sort of dig our heels in and create something new and different.

I think our biggest problem is our almost schizophrenic nature. Air Force Auxiliary at some times, corporate at others. There's also the those who think we should be all corporate, others all military. We have a mix of the two.

Part of our problem is that there are missions that we can't do under military direction, so we accept those as corporate missions and get paid for them. Posse Comitatus is probably the biggest reason for that.

For stuff that is purely corporate, our own decs make sense. For missions that are AF tasks, their decs are probably quite fitting.

As for our new Commendation, it works on the lower levels where the AF isn't going to be seeing the regular sustained work of our units. AF decs probably wouldn't get approved by any Air Force personnel when they don't even know who the person is.

Overall, it seems like a mix of the two is probably going to be more indicative of our dual nature. A couple of questions arise, however. One, what kind of precedence should we set for an intermix of ours and theirs? Two, what about those members in the alternate uniforms that specifically disallow military decorations?

[DNall]

Overall, it seems like a mix of the two is probably going to be more indicative of our dual nature. A couple of questions arise, however. One, what kind of precedence should we set for an intermix of ours and theirs? Two, what about those members in the alternate uniforms that specifically disallow military decorations?

I can't do anything about the wear of mil decs on corp-style uniforms. I think it should be allowed, but that's AF's call. My position would be not to limit recognition to all CAP members just because some people may not be able to equally display it. Ultimately ribbons go on a service coat that rarely gets worn, regardless of it being AF or corp-style. I think it's dramatically more important to get the recognition from the govt than it is to display it after the fact.

Far as precedence, again I can't do anything about that. However, I tend to say it should stay the way it is, with mil decs on top. That's just less complicated & more standardized beyond CAP. If you try to mix it up then it gets complicated. Do I still put my prior service ribbons on top? I'm gonna have an ARCOM over a CAP MOV over an AAM? That's nutty. KISS is the way to go with it.

[Hawk200]

Overall, it seems like a mix of the two is probably going to be more indicative of our dual nature. A couple of questions arise, however. One, what kind of precedence should we set for an intermix of ours and theirs? Two, what about those members in the alternate uniforms that specifically disallow military decorations?

I can't do anything about the wear of mil decs on corp-style uniforms. I think it should be allowed, but that's AF's call. My position would be not to limit recognition to all CAP members just because some people may not be able to equally display it. Ultimately ribbons go on a service coat that rarely gets worn, regardless of it being AF or corp-style. I think it's dramatically more important to get the recognition from the govt than it is to display it after the fact.

Far as precedence, again I can't do anything about that. However, I tend to say it should stay the way it is, with mil decs on top. That's just less complicated & more standardized beyond CAP. If you try to mix it up then it gets complicated. Do I still put my prior service ribbons on top? I'm gonna have an ARCOM over a CAP MOV over an AAM? That's nutty. KISS is the way to go with it.

Yeah, simple probably is the best way. Mil decs on top, go with what we have now. Service coat isn't the only way to do it, though. Due to the influence of a friend that is still active duty, I wear ribbons whenever in blues. My thing, not a rule.

If we do the same work, I don't see a problem with the same recognition. Maybe asking the AF would be a simple way of showing them that we wish to work closer, be more a part of the team. At present, CAP is probably viewed by those in the know as somewhat spoiled. Working closer might improve our standing. We need to be more proactive, express our desires, rather than sitting here wishing, and lamenting our present circumstances. Asking to wear AF decs on corporates might show our interest.

[JohnKachenmeister]

It is possible to have parallel awards systems... AF awards for exemplary actions on AF missions and CAP awards for training/Corporate missions.  The National Guard has such a system, where state awards can be worn subordinate to federal awards.

I think, though, that ribbons in CAP have gotten out of hand.  We get ribbons for almost everything, to the point that only a few end up being meaningful, and they get lost in the crowd.

I would like to see the whole thing scrapped, and if an action did not meet the criteria for an AF award by the AF, then you will just have to keep wearing a blank jacket.

Or... you could enlist and earn a few on active duty.  That's always an option!

Maybe put a letter "A" attachment on the ribbons for awards earned in "Auxiliary" status, but the awards should be regular USAF awards.

[ZigZag911]

I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. 

If a cadet did not have sufficient sense to leave his CAP earned 'fruit salad' at home, at least till completing BMT, I question whether he or she even belongs in military service!