COMMENDATION AWARD

[MIKE]

Why did I let this one drift so much? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Uh-oh.  Mike just discovered that the inmates have taken over the asylum.

Sparky: 

Your scenario does present a problem, the fact that CAP officers may nominate one another for awards based on low-levels of achievement.  But, and I want to emphasize this, we would ONLY seek AF/DoD awards for actual service an AFAM's.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.

Agreed, we have them in our history. Not even a stretch, really. And based on the criteria set forth, this could be awarded now to any CAP member meeting the criteria. The only thing that would reduce eligibility would be defining the "serving in any capacity in or with the Armed Forces".

Corporate missions would not be eligible due to that little clause. A CAP unique award would be appropriate.

GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD flights, or other similar taskings.

The GWOT-S has set criteria. Which requires direct contribution to the war on terrorism.  Air intercepts and CD flights aren't. Manufacturing criteria just so our members can get the award isn't kosher.

Air Force Volunteer Service Medal

One, it is the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal", and is not an Air Force only decoration.

Some reading on that one: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/MIL%20OUTSTANDING%20VOLUNTEER%20SERVICE%20MEDAL1.html

As it shows, it is service to the civilian community by an Armed Forces member. CAP members aren't Armed Forces members, they're civilians contributing to their community in a paramilitary organization.

Air Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify

We have a Red Service ribbon, there is no need for us to get an Air Force award too. Besides, I have an AF Longevity Ribbon, as do more than a few others here. How would you go about accounting for CAP time on the same award?

USAF Achievement Medal OR USAF Civillian Achievement Medal

Not sure what this would get us. In the military, an Achievement medal equals things that CAP doesn't even have. Whats it do for us? Not sure I see the point of getting a military award to just get one.

Humanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita

Our members have worked side by side with military members, and the spirit of this award is fitting. It would require a change at the DOD level for us to be eligible, but if this were proposed, I would support this in a heartbeat.

USAF Small Arms Marksmanship

Not sure even why so many people want this. We don't need firearms to do our jobs, we're not even supposed to be carrying them for normal operations. Any airman can be required to pick a weapon and use it, the ribbon just shows a proficiency. There is no such requirement for CAP members. For CAP, it's simple bling hunting.

Armed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.

Not sure where you got the idea that civilians get this, it is an Armed Forces Reserve Medal.

Some light reading on the AFRM: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/RESERVE_MEDAL.htm

CAP members do not even remotely qualify for this. CAP members are nowhere near the same type of volunteer as any military member. Reserve component members are subject to orders, enlistments, UCMJ, and several other conditions and benefits of being a military member. They don't have the option of saying "I'm a volunteer, you can't order me!".

My response on some of these may be harsh, but I'm being pretty straightforward. Responses on the AF side could range from a hearty laugh and a trip to the round file, to you being dressed down with a "What the devil are you thinking?"

I can appreciate certain military awards to CAP members, as long as the current criteria fit. Trying to revamp the military decorations system just so CAP members can get them is likely to cause the military to consider us pretenders and fools. We can't afford that image.

The best resource on military awards, decs, and some badges: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil

I would suggest reading it before suggesting that CAP members are "eligible for" or "entitled to" Armed Forces awards. It will save problems in the future.

Hawk:

The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people.  IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon.  If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.

What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.

[JayT]

Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.

Agreed, we have them in our history. Not even a stretch, really. And based on the criteria set forth, this could be awarded now to any CAP member meeting the criteria. The only thing that would reduce eligibility would be defining the "serving in any capacity in or with the Armed Forces".

Corporate missions would not be eligible due to that little clause. A CAP unique award would be appropriate.

GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD flights, or other similar taskings.

The GWOT-S has set criteria. Which requires direct contribution to the war on terrorism.  Air intercepts and CD flights aren't. Manufacturing criteria just so our members can get the award isn't kosher.

Air Force Volunteer Service Medal

One, it is the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal", and is not an Air Force only decoration.

Some reading on that one: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/MIL%20OUTSTANDING%20VOLUNTEER%20SERVICE%20MEDAL1.html

As it shows, it is service to the civilian community by an Armed Forces member. CAP members aren't Armed Forces members, they're civilians contributing to their community in a paramilitary organization.

Air Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify

We have a Red Service ribbon, there is no need for us to get an Air Force award too. Besides, I have an AF Longevity Ribbon, as do more than a few others here. How would you go about accounting for CAP time on the same award?

USAF Achievement Medal OR USAF Civillian Achievement Medal

Not sure what this would get us. In the military, an Achievement medal equals things that CAP doesn't even have. Whats it do for us? Not sure I see the point of getting a military award to just get one.

Humanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita

Our members have worked side by side with military members, and the spirit of this award is fitting. It would require a change at the DOD level for us to be eligible, but if this were proposed, I would support this in a heartbeat.

USAF Small Arms Marksmanship

Not sure even why so many people want this. We don't need firearms to do our jobs, we're not even supposed to be carrying them for normal operations. Any airman can be required to pick a weapon and use it, the ribbon just shows a proficiency. There is no such requirement for CAP members. For CAP, it's simple bling hunting.

Armed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.

Not sure where you got the idea that civilians get this, it is an Armed Forces Reserve Medal.

Some light reading on the AFRM: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/RESERVE_MEDAL.htm

CAP members do not even remotely qualify for this. CAP members are nowhere near the same type of volunteer as any military member. Reserve component members are subject to orders, enlistments, UCMJ, and several other conditions and benefits of being a military member. They don't have the option of saying "I'm a volunteer, you can't order me!".

My response on some of these may be harsh, but I'm being pretty straightforward. Responses on the AF side could range from a hearty laugh and a trip to the round file, to you being dressed down with a "What the devil are you thinking?"

I can appreciate certain military awards to CAP members, as long as the current criteria fit. Trying to revamp the military decorations system just so CAP members can get them is likely to cause the military to consider us pretenders and fools. We can't afford that image.

The best resource on military awards, decs, and some badges: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil

I would suggest reading it before suggesting that CAP members are "eligible for" or "entitled to" Armed Forces awards. It will save problems in the future.

Hawk:

The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people.  IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon.  If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.

What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.

Major, you've said this a a half dozen times, and it still doesn't make sense.

If you want to reduce the number of ribbons a CAP member can earn, then do it. Sticking Air Force bling on our uniforms doesn't solve the 'problem' we apparently have with having to many ribbons.

[Hawk200]

Hawk:

The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people.  IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon.  If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.

What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.

Oh, I agree that we need to reduce the number of awards. I've put up a thread on this very idea myself. But, there needs to be some boundaries.

It seems that some people think that we (as CAP members) are already elibigle for a number of military awards and decs, and it is not true. The criteria for those are more or less written in stone, we cannot be trying to claim entitlement and eligibility for things when it clearly does not exist. For something like the HSM, the award would be fitting, and it would require a small change. For an AFRM, it's not.

Considering our dual nature, there are times when it would be highly inappropriate to award military decs, especially on corporate only missions. Not to mention, we can't be trying for things in a manner that the Air Force would consider frivolous. An achievement medal for those working directly with the AF on missions is appropriate. It's not for the unit that never works with the Air Force.

The new Commendation is a good concept. I'm a little concerned that it would be abused, but just about everything can be. But we also need to clean up some of the excessive decs that we have.

For example, our PD awards are loosely equivalent to Air Force PME. The Air Force has a single ribbon for that. As seniors, we have five. We don't need five. It's excessive. A CAP equivalent award is probably best for that.

Authorizing a Longevity for us would be an attempt to give separate criteria for a single award. I'm willing to bet that the Air Force isn't going to be willing to do that with their decs. Not to mention, the award criteria would have to be in Air Force publication.

I think that there are things that it is appropriate for us to receive mil decs. But for other things, it isn't. It would take a great deal of research to determine that. We need to see what fits, not take an "Ooh, I want that one!" view on it.

[Hawk200]

If you want to reduce the number of ribbons a CAP member can earn, then do it. Sticking Air Force bling on our uniforms doesn't solve the 'problem' we apparently have with having to many ribbons.

I've got to agree with Themann on this one. He's starting to show a great deal of wisdom.

[JayT]

Hawk:

The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people.  IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon.  If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.

What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.

Oh, I agree that we need to reduce the number of awards. I've put up a thread on this very idea myself. But, there needs to be some boundaries.

It seems that some people think that we (as CAP members) are already elibigle for a number of military awards and decs, and it is not true. The criteria for those are more or less written in stone, we cannot be trying to claim entitlement and eligibility for things when it clearly does not exist. For something like the HSM, the award would be fitting, and it would require a small change. For an AFRM, it's not.

Considering our dual nature, there are times when it would be highly inappropriate to award military decs, especially on corporate only missions. Not to mention, we can't be trying for things in a manner that the Air Force would consider frivolous. An achievement medal for those working directly with the AF on missions is appropriate. It's not for the unit that never works with the Air Force.

The new Commendation is a good concept. I'm a little concerned that it would be abused, but just about everything can be. But we also need to clean up some of the excessive decs that we have.

For example, our PD awards are loosely equivalent to Air Force PME. The Air Force has a single ribbon for that. As seniors, we have five. We don't need five. It's excessive. A CAP equivalent award is probably best for that.

Authorizing a Longevity for us would be an attempt to give separate criteria for a single award. I'm willing to bet that the Air Force isn't going to be willing to do that with their decs. Not to mention, the award criteria would have to be in Air Force publication.

I think that there are things that it is appropriate for us to receive mil decs. But for other things, it isn't. It would take a great deal of research to determine that. We need to see what fits, not take an "Ooh, I want that one!" view on it.

Amen.

[Flying Pig]

If you want to earn a USAF award, then join the USAF where you don't get to volunteer for where you go and what you do.  

The Volunteer Service Medal (not just a USAF medal) was created to recognize those service members who took the "extra" time to support the community.  Although it did tighten my jaw to see some people who had to leave work early every other Friday to get to their volunteer duty...

USAF awards have been cheapened enough over the years, but it would really cheapen them to start awarding them to CAP members.  Sorry, but that is just the way I feel about it - and so does every senior NCO and senior Officer (active and retired) I have discussed this with.

I still see no problem with CAP using just CAP medals.  There is absolutely no reason other than some ego stroking, that we need to be awarded Air Force medals. As a CAP member, we are never going to be part of the "family".   If you want a military medal, join the military.  Some of you have some odd motivations.

Also, will cadets be able to be awarded the military medals?  

[arajca]

For example, our PD awards are loosely equivalent to Air Force PME. The Air Force has a single ribbon for that. As seniors, we have five. We don't need five. It's excessive. A CAP equivalent award is probably best for that.

Let's reduce it to two - one for specific CAP PD levels and one for PME completion. The second is a nod toward the stars that are placed on the Garber and Wilson ribbons for completing SOS/ACSC/AWC. At the risk of increasing cost, use ribbon bars with the award names to designate level completed, i.e. Membership is a plain ribbon, Davis has a "DAVIS" bar, Loening a "LOENING" bar, etc. Each bar is the same size so changing them is not too destructive to the ribbons. Only one ribbon with the highest bar is worn. Use something similar for the PME ribbon - only SOS, ACSC, and AWC would be eligible for the ribbon.

Using the bars 'personalizes' the ribbon to the award. Perhaps make each bar a different color to help distinguish the awards?

[DNall]

There should be a designation as to from what level of command the CC came.

Why? Why should a Commendation from one level be any more distinguishable from another? Both are still commendations. The higher level commander could easily swing a higher dec, there would be very few people that could question it.

Exactly. The award has to do with the level of the accomplishment, not who recognizes it. If they are on region staff, then the region commander approves it, even though the award may be a gp or wg level  approved award. If it's a more significant accomplishment then they should be put in for a higher level award.

[Hawk200]

Let's reduce it to two - one for specific CAP PD levels and one for PME completion. The second is a nod toward the stars that are placed on the Garber and Wilson ribbons for completing SOS/ACSC/AWC. At the risk of increasing cost, use ribbon bars with the award names to designate level completed, i.e. Membership is a plain ribbon, Davis has a "DAVIS" bar, Loening a "LOENING" bar, etc. Each bar is the same size so changing them is not too destructive to the ribbons. Only one ribbon with the highest bar is worn. Use something similar for the PME ribbon - only SOS, ACSC, and AWC would be eligible for the ribbon.

Using the bars 'personalizes' the ribbon to the award. Perhaps make each bar a different color to help distinguish the awards?

You know, I kinda like this idea. It's simple, but it works. Use a basic PD ribbon for Level one. For  Level 2 ad a bronze bar, Level 3: silver, Level 4: gold. We could reduce four ribbons to one. I could buy off on a separate ribbon for the Wilson, it's a pretty distinctive award. I don't think too many people even bother to get it.

There used to be an old ECI ribbon. You got it for doing their courses. Maybe use a similar concept and design a ribbon similar to the Air Force PME ribbon with clasps. (The Air Force PME ribbon is only for NCO PME, not officer courses.) Complete any one of the Air Force courses, get the basic ribbon. Get an additional oak leaf cluster for any additional courses completed. Set the wear criteria for it. It could work.

I think we should get away from the "get promoted, get a ribbon" concept. It's tantamount to getting two awards for a single accomplishment.

[Hawk200]

You know, this thread has drifted a little much. Should we start a new thread on some of these new ideas? Or just get back to the original topic?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, since my motives have been questioned, my positions twisted, and the questions I posed for discussion mistaken for advocacy, yes.  Let's change the subject!

[Hawk200]

I'll start a new thread on revamping decs.

New thread here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4390.new#new