Flight Suit Wear

[dwb]

I vote to leave the policy as is.

Let the dude in charge (commander, IC, etc.) dictate the UOD, and be done with it.

That reasonable minds can disagree in this thread as to what constitutes appropriate wear criteria, in my opinion, suggests that hard-coding one set of criteria would needlessly snub the others.

[Eclipse]

I am rated for numerous ES specialties, including aircrew.  I arrive at a mission in my flight suit, assuming I will fly.  Upon arrival the IC tells me they have plenty of aircrews, but I am needed as a Mission Information Officer.  Do you want me to go home and change?

I arrive at a mission in BDU, since I was told on the telephone that I would be the Ground Branch Director.  Several hours into the mission, one of the aircrewmen gets an emergency notification that he has to go home.  I am tapped to fly as Mission Observer in his place.  Do I go home and change again?

We need to work this in the easiest way:  Flight Suit and BDU are equal uniforms.  If you are aircrew rated, you can wear the flight suit anytime you would wear the BDU.  The flight suit does not work well as a field uniform, but works well enough for short trips out on UDF missions.

The USAF has asked us to wear flight suits on base augmentation  missions if we are aircrew rated, since that is their uniform of the day. 

Why should you have to go home?  If you're dual-qual'ed and have a reasonable expectation of participation in both / either, bring the "other" on a hanger and change if appropriate.

I'm assuming that you would do just that if you showed up to be an MP and found you were needed as a GTL.

I'm also not so "stamp my feet" strong on this that there isn't some room for reasonable flexibility.

I'm just tired of the "lowest common denominator" / "I'm a hotel-sierra aircrew guy" attitude that comes with wearing the flight bag to unit meetings, and then propagates itself to the overall attitude.

(yes, yes, fix the member, not the rules.  We've tried that for about 30 years)

Wherever this falls, we'd all be better served if 39-1 pushed more specificity on the when / where of uniforms so that we could achieve more national consistency.

The people who repeatedly use the USAF/AG as an example forget that for >MOST< of them, they received the same or similar basic training, and (even if it hasn't been out of the dry cleaner bag in 5 years), know how to wear other combinations if/when necessary.

Not so for many CAP people who seem proud of the fact that all they own is a flightsuit.

[BlueLakes1]

Why should you have to go home?  If you're dual-qual'ed and have a reasonable expectation of participation in both / either, bring the "other" on a hanger and change if appropriate.

I'm assuming that you would do just that if you showed up to be an MP and found you were needed as a GTL.

If I was a MP and a GT person, I might buy that. I'm not, and a flightsuit will work just fine for anything on a mission that's not ground team related.

I'm also not so "stamp my feet" strong on this that there isn't some room for reasonable flexibility.

You've been stamping your feet against the wear of flightsuits for anything but flying for quite a while now, and you've argued against CC discretion in allowing them, both in this forum and others.

I'm just tired of the "lowest common denominator" / "I'm a hotel-sierra aircrew guy" attitude that comes with wearing the flight bag to unit meetings, and then propagates itself to the overall attitude.

(yes, yes, fix the member, not the rules.  We've tried that for about 30 years)

Did it ever occur to you that if you immediately assume that anyone in a flightuit is a FPOC, and you act towards them as such, that you'll probably get a negative reaction back from them?

Wherever this falls, we'd all be better served if 39-1 pushed more specificity on the when / where of uniforms so that we could achieve more national consistency.

If I go into any unit meeting on any given night, I'll see a hodgepodge of uniforms. Regardless of what the UOD is, and even if everyone abides by the UOD, some folks will be in a USAF style combo and some folks will be in a corporate combo. With so many different uniform options, consistency is simply imposible. If the UOD is a utility uniform, then what is wrong with the wear of the flightsuit (either blue or green), as it is the flyer's utility uniform. Why should you expect people who only participate in aircrew activites to buy a BDU/BBDU combo, just so that the non-flyers don't get upset?

The people who repeatedly use the USAF/AG as an example forget that for >MOST< of them, they received the same or similar basic training, and (even if it hasn't been out of the dry cleaner bag in 5 years), know how to wear other combinations if/when necessary.

Not so for many CAP people who seem proud of the fact that all they own is a flightsuit.

You make this statement, but did you know that morale tabs and friday patches are officially verboten for the USAF folks too? Bet that you've seen someone wearing them at some time or another, and even if you haven't, you know that they're a big part of the Air Force culture. The difference is that they focus on important things (like accomplishment of their mission), instead of sitting here (she-dogging) about a tiny piece of cloth all day.

[Eclipse]

If I go into any unit meeting on any given night, I'll see a hodgepodge of uniforms.

THANK YOU!

I appreciate the fact that you agree with the problem...

It helps when we're all on the same page.

[BlueLakes1]

If I go into any unit meeting on any given night, I'll see a hodgepodge of uniforms.

THANK YOU!

I appreciate the fact that you agree with the problem...

It helps when we're all on the same page.

...But I don't necessarily agree that it's a problem. If I go on a base, I see people in a number of uniforms as well. If I go to a meeting, I may see people in blues, BDUs or bags, depending on what they do in their regular jobs. If I go on the flightline, the flyers wear bags, the maintainers are in BDUs. If I go to the DFAC, I see people in white food service utilities. If I go to the med clinic, I'll see people in BDUs, or flight surgeons/nurses in flightsuits. If I go in the squadrons, again, the flyers are in flightsuits, while the clerks, life support techs, etc. are all in BDUs.

I don't see a problem at all with members wearing uniforms that are germain to the job that they do; neither does the RealMilitary. Why should we be any different?

[O-Rex]

If I go into any unit meeting on any given night, I'll see a hodgepodge of uniforms.

THANK YOU!

I appreciate the fact that you agree with the problem...

It helps when we're all on the same page.

...But I don't necessarily agree that it's a problem. If I go on a base, I see people in a number of uniforms as well. If I go to a meeting, I may see people in blues, BDUs or bags, depending on what they do in their regular jobs. If I go on the flightline, the flyers wear bags, the maintainers are in BDUs. If I go to the DFAC, I see people in white food service utilities. If I go to the med clinic, I'll see people in BDUs, or flight surgeons/nurses in flightsuits. If I go in the squadrons, again, the flyers are in flightsuits, while the clerks, life support techs, etc. are all in BDUs.

I don't see a problem at all with members wearing uniforms that are germain to the job that they do; neither does the RealMilitary. Why should we be any different?

I think the difference is that during the course of a normal duty day, your flyers will fly (or at least be on standby or QRC) and your maintainers maintain.

CAP doesn't have a typical duty day: so it really doesn't apply.  If you are in a Cadet/Composite Squadron, you usually wear what the Cadets are wearing.  Senior squadrons are more often than not "come as you are affairs," with golf-shirts predominant. 

If I am visiting subordinate units, I usually ask them what their uniform-of-the-day is, and dress appropriately.  If I'm in a time-crunch coming from work, I will go to work with gray pants, and do a quick-change with golf-shirt on the way.

I often keep a "go-bag" with flightsuit, boots and headset in the trunk of my car: it's come in very handy.

Wear the uniform that's right for the activity, and you can't go wrong.



 

[BlueLakes1]

I think the difference is that during the course of a normal duty day, your flyers will fly (or at least be on standby or QRC) and your maintainers maintain.

Not so. Since the Air Force got away from "Warrior Friday" and started wearing utilities all the time, you see people who aren't on flight status at all in flight suits as their regular duty uniform. I personally saw the AMC/DO on a base in a flight suit; I saw a recent picture of Col. Hodgkins in a meeting, I believe it was the last NEC meeting, in a bag. One only need to look at the news releases on af.mil to see rated officers in non-flying slots wearing flight suits as a UOD, and I'll re-hash that some people, such as Aerospace Physiology folks, wear flight suits for their UOD and they don't fly to begin with. Finally, almost all rated CAPRAPers wear bags, and they're not on active flight status either.

I'd also submit that if the CAP unit whose meeting you're attending has an aircraft assigned, you're on standby. I've had several squadron meetings turn into SAR flights; why not be prepared for it happening?

[mikeylikey]

Does it matter who wears a bag?  As long as it is worn properly, whats the big deal??

Lets get away from "I wear the flight suit because I fly and you don't, so I am better" mentality.

Frankly, I don't care what the Air Force does.  If we went on that basis, then we need to RIF 30 new members immediately. 

Face it, people are wearing the bag because it is comfortable.  I would rather drive to base in the FS than BDU's anyday. 

A simple one sentence should suffice.  Something like;  "Any active CAP member wishing to wear the Flight Suit may do so as long as they have their immediate superiors permission"

[JayT]

It seems there's a lot of guard house lawyering going on here.

You wear the flight suit if your rated air crew (MP, MO, and MS) and if you're flying. The rest of the time, you wear the UOD.

Is it really that hard to iron a pair of BDU's/service dress for a weekly meeting? Or a polo shirt with gray pants?

[BlueLakes1]

You wear the flight suit if your rated air crew (MP, MO, and MS) and if you're flying.

Reg cite please. (Boldface mine)

The rest of the time, you wear the UOD.

I'm the unit commander. I say the flight suit is an acceptable UOD for qualified members. Commanders are allowed to determine the UOD for meetings or activities.

While it's not regulatory in nature, how about the Knowledgebase?

Wearing the AF style flight suit to weekly unit meetings

  Question
  Can the Air Force-style flight suit be worn by CAP pilots to the weekly unit meeting?

  Answer
  There are some restrictions in the CAP Uniform Manual on wearing the AF style flight suit. Basically, the AF flight suit may be worn during
travel to and from activities provided it is not by commercial means and only essential stops are made enroute to and from the duty performance site.
Wear of the AF flight suit while shopping or other nonessential activities would be prohibited. Within these restrictions, allowing members to wear the AF flight suit
to unit meetings would be up to the unit commander.

See Paragraph 2-1d from CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual and knowledgebase answer(s) below for additional details.

Also see Answer 990: Wearing the flight suit to a CAP activity Click Here

Answer 1133:  CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual Click Here

That's answer ID #1551. Find a regulation to contradict it.

Is it really that hard to iron a pair of BDU's/service dress for a weekly meeting? Or a polo shirt with gray pants?

I fly. I don't own BDUs because I don't tromp in the mud. I don't wear the polo shirt because I don't want to look like I'm going bowling. The service dress isn't appropriate for every occasion. Again, the flight suit is the utility uniform for aircrew members. Why should I buy BDUs or BBDUs just to come to meetings?

[BillB]

How's this for a regulation cite:
CAPR 39-1 Chap 2 2-1-d
d. Flight Crew members wearing the green Air Force flight suit may make only essential stops
en route to and from the duty performance site. If a stop is essential, members must meet the proper
standards of neatness, cleanliness, and military image.

Duty performance would not be a flight operation meeting the "duty performance" requirement.

[BlueLakes1]

How's this for a regulation cite:
CAPR 39-1 Chap 2 2-1-d
d. Flight Crew members wearing the green Air Force flight suit may make only essential stops
en route to and from the duty performance site. If a stop is essential, members must meet the proper
standards of neatness, cleanliness, and military image.

Duty performance would not be a flight operation meeting the "duty performance" requirement.

I think that what you're saying is that this paragraph would forbid the wearing of the flight suit to meetings; if I'm incorrect, please clarify.

If that is your position, I disagree. If the intent was to limit the flight suit to flying only, than it would say "airport" or "flight activity" or "flight activity site", or something to that effect. It doesn't, it says "duty performance site". I have a card from the FAA that says I'm a pilot, and I'm a pilot all the time. I've got 101 card qualifications for every aircrew specialty, save Archer Operator. I'm a qualified aircrew member, all the time, even if my duty for a given meeting is to give a briefing. Just because I'm not scheduled to step to the plane that evening doesn't mean that I'm not a "Flight Crew Member", nor does it mean that AFRCC might not call during the meeting and force me to use those flight crew qualifications on short notice. I'd rather be ready, just in case.

[RiverAux]

Personaly, I would prefer by great leaps and bounds that members wore the flight suit to a meeting compared to the golf shirt, if the squadron is a flying unit.  If you don't have a plane within 100 miles then I think it would be a little silly to be wearing one.  

In real CAP life I don't think I've ever seen someone who doesn't have an aircrew rating wearing a flight suit and I doubt anyone would, so restricting its wear doesn't seem to be worth doing.  

[tribalelder]

If A/C's wear nomex for safety, passengers should have the option to be as safe. 

Passengers could be GT's being airlifted, highbird operators, whether they are A/C, IC, GBD, CUL, or o-ride participants.

If the flightsuit is not about safety, then I guess it's an A/C 'club' thing.

[T34 Flyer]

I started a CAP squadron on a naval air station.  At the meetings with the station CO, he stated that wanted the CAP squadron to be "treated like a normal flying squadron".  This included pilots wear of flight suits on the station.  This improved the professional image of our squadron and we still fit in. 

We fit in so well that on Sept. 11th I received a 0910 hrs local phone call inquiring on assets that CAP could bring to the table in the next 2 hrs.

[mikeylikey]

Ok....so if we limit the Bag to flight crew members, simple fix.  We start training everyone to be a crew member.  Break out the books, start studying, and participate in training activities.  PROBLEM SOLVED!  Everyone is now a rated crew member. 

If we did that, and everyone walked around in flight suits, I think some would be pissed as hell that their distinctive "trademarked" badge of "BETTERNESS" was now a common uniform.     That is the impression I get from reading some replies above. 

Wearing a flight suit is letting the world know "I am more than an ordinary CAP member, I am a pilot and better than everyone else".   

Am I wrong?  Maybe, but I know some look at it that way.   

[RiverAux]

Some might say the same about BDUs since (for seniors) they are almost exclusively worn by ground team members. 

[Hawk200]

Some might say the same about BDUs since (for seniors) they are almost exclusively worn by ground team members. 

Gonna have to explain that one to me. Most of the members in my unit wear BDUs, and only a few are GT qualified. Most of the members in my wing are in the same status. What does being GT qualified have to do with wearing BDU's?

[RiverAux]

In my wing I've only once or twice seen a senior member wearing BDUs or BBDUs who was not involved in the ground team program just as I've never seen someone in a flightsuit who wasn't an aircrew member.

[JayT]

In my wing I've only once or twice seen a senior member wearing BDUs or BBDUs who was not involved in the ground team program just as I've never seen someone in a flightsuit who wasn't an aircrew member.

That's not normal......

There's more to CAP then ES you know.