My Utility Uniform Proposal

[RiverAux]

Here is what a comprehensive poll would have today:
1.  Keep current mix of AF-style uniforms, current corporate uniforms, civilian uniforms. etc., as they are for the forseeable future. 
2.  Keep current mix of AF-style uniforms, current corporate uniforms, civilian uniforms, etc but transition to ABUs and new AF service dress when allowed by AF.
3.  Keep current AF-style uniforms and corporate dress uniforms, civilian uniforms, but drop the BBDUs in favor of Stonewall's proposed corporate field uniform for those who can't wear AF-style.
4.  Keep current AF-style uniforms and corporate dress uniforms, civilian uniforms, but drop the BBDUs in favor of Stonewall's proposed corporate field uniform for those who can't wear AF-style.  But, transition to ABU/new AF service dress when authorized by AF. 
5.  Drop all AF-style uniforms, only wear BBDUs, TPU, civilian uniforms. 
6.  Drop all AF-style uniforms, only wear Stonewall's proposed uniform, TPU, civilian uniforms. 

I think you would get some radically different results if all the options were actually presented. 

[Stonewall]

I think by the time people got to #3, they'd either go blind or hit the "back" button.  But I bet if you put pictures to represent the different options, people would be more likely to vote.

Anyway, I'll probably lock the poll and watch this discussion drift away off into the sunset...

[SARMedTech]

BTW, here is an image of the KBU pants, but in khaki.  It's easier to see the features in the khaki than in OD.

Kirt- Now I know the KBU is Tru-Spec TRUs with the Mr. Kirt touch. And well they should be. After a long period of not much innovation, Tru-Spec has finally come up with a uniform that fits the times. I have a pair of these with my IMERT stuff sewn on, just waiting for approval to wear them. They are comfortable. The convertable collar is handy, though so far Ive only worn mine in the standup configuration They have the warrior like appearance that so many CAPsters crave. The seem to be able to stand up to abuse. Perhaps the biggest deal is cost. They are inexpensive and Ive never had any problems with Tru-Spec gear. SInce I have the set of khakis in TRUs, Ive actually worn them to one meeting and people werent quite sure what the difference was. Kept looking at their BDUs and then at my TRUs. Im also in the process of jumping through hoops for a corrections officers job in a 2200 inmate facility and there is serious talk about phasing out the typical police style uniform for the grey TRUs. I was talking to a CO from the same facility and he said that there is something slightly intimidating about the TRU, especially when inmates are used to seeing the old grey police uniforms. The TRU (pardon be KBU) just has a little more of the warrior edge to it. I think it would also work well both for corrections officer (or CO hopefuls like myself) working on a corrections emergency response team because the mandarin collar can be tightened up around the balaclavas that the CERT guys wear. Anyway...more about my new job path in a PM to Stonewall. I love this uniform and if given the choice of BDUs or TRUs with IMERT I will go with TRUs and keep my BDUs for standby. I spoke with our deputy admin today and she had never seen them and loves them. If the whole team doesnt switch to them, she thinks that they would be good for our Terrorism Task Force, USAR, etc. I thought I liked them but she went  totally gaga.

In the CAP arena...this is the "where have you been all my life" uniform. It works for both the lean and mean and the fat and fuzzy. Eliminates at least one uniform and things the uniform regs by an untold number of pages. I like the rank in the center of the chest and I know for a fact that the slanted pockets are easier to get into. I slapped some velcro'd patches on for a recent field medical drill (with permission of course) and found that they worked fantastically. No failures. I dont know if there is a different cut to the leg, but they blouse better, even with 8" boots and they stay up better under the heavy weight of the 5.11 riggers belt I wear (the buckle is dye cast and weighs about 12 oz..by the way...best belt I have ever owned. It is very comfortable, has velcro to keep the tail of the belt from flapping around and eliminating the need to cut it off, its easy to adjust as gear starts to shift during your field work and Im convinced that the drop forged buckle could be used as a weapon. If the 5.11 riggers/trainers belt fits CAP regs, I recommend it to everyone as the perfect belt. Im getting another one with the addition of kidney pads to wear over my BDU blouse as a duty belt.I have tried this out already and it holds up to two (1) two quart canteens, my EMT holster which weighs about a pound, streamlight stinger, personal first aide kit and a few other chatchkees.

I think CAP should enter into a supply agreement with Tru-Spec and 5.11 for all uniform needs. Just watch the Tru-Spec dye lots: a recent set of khaki BDUs has a blouse that was actually coyote and pants that were desert tan. Its a noticeable difference so that is now my work, trash it up if I have to set.

[SARMedTech]

Yes, but unlike your poll, mine offers a new option, something that the voters can see; something tangible.  Not to mention, mine is specific to the utility uniform, not an across the board poll regarding all CAP uniforms.

Perhaps your poll results would be different if you suggested something specific.  I don't think our two polls have anything to do with one another.

I do understand that a lot of people will not like my unofficial proposal, I'm okay with that.  I'm not heart broken and I'm not losing sleep.  It was almost fun throwing it out there.  However, I do think we have a broken system.  Some say "why try to fix something that ain't broke", well my personal opinion is that it is broken and it will remain as such until we have one service uniform, one utility uniform and one flight uniform for every member to wear.

Fact is, I offered a poll with a picture of something new.  More than half of the votes are in favor of my prototype utility uniform.  I'm actually surprised that it did so well.  I really expected a lot more responses like yours, RiverAux.  And I can appreciate yours and everyone else's opinions.  It's cool, no biggie.  I truly think I have a good idea and I do believe it can work.  That said, I know it won't go any further than this discussion/poll.  So don't worry, you won't have to wear the KBU.

Uncle Kirt-

Say you bucked this new uniform all the way up the chain and it got approved for wear with a mandatory wear of 2010, eliminating both camo and BBDU. I wonder if we would see alot more polo shirt wearers among those that dont like them. Other than SAR, what are the jobs that polos are not allowed for?

[JayT]

Yes, but unlike your poll, mine offers a new option, something that the voters can see; something tangible.  Not to mention, mine is specific to the utility uniform, not an across the board poll regarding all CAP uniforms.

Perhaps your poll results would be different if you suggested something specific.  I don't think our two polls have anything to do with one another.

I do understand that a lot of people will not like my unofficial proposal, I'm okay with that.  I'm not heart broken and I'm not losing sleep.  It was almost fun throwing it out there.  However, I do think we have a broken system.  Some say "why try to fix something that ain't broke", well my personal opinion is that it is broken and it will remain as such until we have one service uniform, one utility uniform and one flight uniform for every member to wear.

Fact is, I offered a poll with a picture of something new.  More than half of the votes are in favor of my prototype utility uniform.  I'm actually surprised that it did so well.  I really expected a lot more responses like yours, RiverAux.  And I can appreciate yours and everyone else's opinions.  It's cool, no biggie.  I truly think I have a good idea and I do believe it can work.  That said, I know it won't go any further than this discussion/poll.  So don't worry, you won't have to wear the KBU.

Uncle Kirt-

Say you bucked this new uniform all the way up the chain and it got approved for wear with a mandatory wear of 2010, eliminating both camo and BBDU. I wonder if we would see alot more polo shirt wearers among those that dont like them. Other than SAR, what are the jobs that polos are not allowed for?

Where does it say that the polo isn't allowed for SAR?

[Stonewall]

Wear does it say that the polo isn't allowed for SAR?

As far as I know, it doesn't say it.  As far as I'm concerned, the polo combo is no different than BDUs or a flight suit.  You can wear them when and where you want.

[Nathan]

I find it hilarious how the far majority wants the KBU.

I would love to see this go through the chain and work it's way into policy at some point. It'd be beyond nice to have to pay one more time for a uniform and sewing...

Don't we have THE uniform guy on here somewhere?

[SARMedTech]

I find it hilarious how the far majority wants the KBU.

I would love to see this go through the chain and work it's way into policy at some point. It'd be beyond nice to have to pay one more time for a uniform and sewing...

Don't we have THE uniform guy on here somewhere?

1. Considering the fact that the main idea is for the KBU to replace at least 2 uniforms, it seems pretty cost effective to me.

2. By the KBU at your local uniform shoppe and most will sew your patches for free if not at a drastically reduced price. Its all part of the tailoring.

3. Tru-Spec is not only a better quality uniform than the Asian imports alot of members are wearing, they stand up better, look better and are overall of a better quality, which I am sure are three factors that Kirt took into account before making his suggestion.

4. I also say that we drop the grey pant requirement with the polo shirt uniform and go to OD green. If all members who wear the polo combo bought their OD green pants through Tru-Spec it would eliminate the "where can I get grey pants that match everyone else's?" And since the KBU would technically (I think) be a corporate uniform, Brother Blue couldnt put the kaibosh on it.

[smj58501]

.... It'd be beyond nice to have to pay one more time for a uniform and sewing...

Unless I am reading in to the photo, there should be no sewing needed. The patches and nametapes affix with velcro, just like ACU's. A smart vendor should have "velcro-ready" patches and nametapes available close to the time this uniform would be fielded (yes I know I may be giving Vanguard more credit than they have demonstrated they are worth, but there is nothing lost with being optimistic)

[Stonewall]

The uniform in my picture came with OD velcro for nametapes and rank, but they weren't sewn on.  I'm sure they did that so as to give us the option.  Not everyone has a need to velcro everything on.  For us, I could go either way.  I would even venture the thought of making it optional.  However, if we did velcro our tapes, I would then suggest making it policy to pin our badges on vs sewing them.  Wouldn't make sense to have permanent badges sewn yet tapes be velcroed.  YMMV.

I bet, we could negotiate the price of the TRU from Tru-Spec down to $29.99 a piece vs $39.99 and have velcro sewn on already.  I mean, when you contract someone to do something like this, you just put what you want into the contract, just like having them make OD outergarments like raingear and cold wx gear.

[Nathan]

I'd really like to see this uniform out there soon.

I just can't imagine that there are many members willing to give up their BDU's. After all, how will we know the REAL members from the OTHER ones.

[JayT]

I'd really like to see this uniform out there soon.

I just can't imagine that there are many members willing to give up their BDU's. After all, how will we know the REAL members from the OTHER ones.

*shrugs* I wear Blue BDUs all the time, and no one has ever seen me as less of a member.

[Stonewall]

*shrugs* I wear Blue BDUs all the time, and no one has ever seen me as less of a member.

You do realize that isn't my point.  The point is to have everyone in a single uniform.  I swear I've said this was my goal at least 10 times during this 5 page thread.  I don't knock anyone for exercising their right to wear BBDUs as long as it's allowed in the regs.  I personally don't care for the BBDUs, but that's my problem.

[JayT]

*shrugs* I wear Blue BDUs all the time, and no one has ever seen me as less of a member.

You do realize that isn't my point.  The point is to have everyone in a single uniform.  I swear I've said this was my goal at least 10 times during this 5 page thread.  I don't knock anyone for exercising their right to wear BBDUs as long as it's allowed in the regs.  I personally don't care for the BBDUs, but that's my problem.

I wasn't responding to that Colonel. I understand your idea.

[baronet68]

The point is to have everyone in a single uniform.

I've been wishing for an all-inclusive uniform for years and this is a great option that should REALLY be pushed up the chain.

Where do I start?  My Wing CC?

[Stonewall]

Where do I start?  My Wing CC?

I actually sent a picture and note to Col Frank McConnell from MER.  I know he was on the uniform committee a year or so ago, but I'm not sure if he is anymore.  He's a good friend, known him for about 16 years.  He's the one that officially suggested and pushed up the gore-tex rank thing.  We used to do it for years before he thought to send it up. 

Sent it a few days ago, no reply, but he's in and out of the country a lot.

[afgeo4]

Have we resolved the issue of cold weather protection for this uniform? Are there manufacturers who will make the parka in this "pattern"?

Also... this uniform will be VERY expensive as it would be made solely for CAP use. We would not be tapping into a very large government contract which ends up fairly inexpensive for the end user.

[CASH172]

He's the one that officially suggested and pushed up the gore-tex rank thing.

If he's the one that suggested the gore-tex insignia tab, can you ask him why there are no cadet officer ones like they're supposed to be.  I'd like to be in regs when I wear my gore-tex parka, but it's impossible. 

[Stonewall]

Have we resolved the issue of cold weather protection for this uniform? Are there manufacturers who will make the parka in this "pattern"?

No "we" haven't resolved the issue.  However, I did mention a solution that does work on a daily basis.  When somone wants something, you ask for it.  As I've stated in this thread, maybe even on this page, Tru-Spec already makes cold and wet weather gear for this uniform, just not in OD.  If we gave them the demand for 10,000, which is an unrealistic number, because it would be in the 30K+ range (55K CAP members), it will be a non-issue.  Plus, the cost of this foul weather gear is <$100.  Trust me, they'll make it.

After all, what is your solution for outergarments with the highly expensive ABU?  You think because they're made for the AF in mass quantities that they're cheap?  Nope.  What is the current answer to your question with BBDU/BDUs?  We either pay more than $100 for a GI Issue gore-tex or we wear whatever civilian outer garment we can find.  Same has been happening for 60 years.

Also... this uniform will be VERY expensive as it would be made solely for CAP use. We would not be tapping into a very large government contract which ends up fairly inexpensive for the end user.

Um, no, it won't be "VERY" expensive.  Right now, it costs less than the ABU.  The BBDUs, which are a poor quality, cost about $24 a piece, that's $48.  In bulk, with a contract, there is no doubt in my mind that we could get the KBU (Tru-Spec TRU) at $30 a piece ($60), $24 less than the ABU currently costs. 

Did you take notice of the points I made about the ABU boots?  Cheapest pair, the summer/hot weather ones, cost $114.  No more wearing pretty much any black boot you want. 

A lot of the question people are asking are questions that we can ask ourselves about our current set-up with BBDUs and BDUs.  What is the answer for outer garments with BBDUs?  If one wishes to maintain a sense of uniformity with the BBDUs do they make a military style gore-tex in blue?  Or do you just throw on your Redskins jacket?

[Stonewall]

If he's the one that suggested the gore-tex insignia tab, can you ask him why there are no cadet officer ones like they're supposed to be.  I'd like to be in regs when I wear my gore-tex parka, but it's impossible. 

He suggested gore-tex rank tabs, he didn't manufacture them.  I don't know what the deal is with cadet rank.  Personally, I'd either wear nothing or pin on a set of strips, pips or diamonds.