My Utility Uniform Proposal

[lordmonar]

Why are we focusing on creating a new uniform that would be wearable by those who do not meet standards.  Shouldn't we go the other direction and create a program that creates a healthier force with the majority of members meeting military (or CAP) standards? 

Sure we can....are we (as in CAP in general) ready to loose 50% of our members?

That is my unscientific WAG as how many people won't or can't comply with USAF standards.

Let's face it.  CAP as an organization has a serious problem with overweight and out of shape members.

You can make the argument all day long that you don't have to be in perfect physical shape to contribute to the mission.  But the fact remains, we don't get the respect from our parent organization because we don't act like we deserve it.  No wonder USAF doesn't want us in a uniform that closely resembles theirs.  We usually look like a joke.

I do the job whether I get "respect" or not. 

We should spend more of our time focusing on acting and looking like auxiliary members of the USAF.  I am a firm believer that we should have a PT program for officers and that there should be ONE utility and ONE dress uniform for all members.  If you don't meet standards, go on a diet and get on a treadmill or you don't wear the uniform.  Let's stop trying to find the lowest common denominator and set a higher standard.  The ACA has consistently high standards and they are allowed to wear the same uniform as their parent organization with subdued markings even!  We could learn a lot from them.

It's because the ACA did not ask permission (they did not have to)....as with us....by my read of the law....(and I am not a lawer)...the USAF veto on CAP/USAF style uniforms....is a myth.  It's not in any of our regulations, by laws, or any thing......and it is not in any USAF regulation. 

We could right now legally get all CAP members into USAF style uniforms with the simple addition of a patch on the left IIRC shoulder of all uniforms.

Legally the USAF could not stop us...but we would have to deal with the fall out out of pissing them off.

[SARMedTech]

By forcing everyone into a non-AF style uniform you are discriminating against those who do meet AF standards in favor of those who choose not too. 

Not going to get into a legal battle of what is or isn't discrimination, but I think you'd be hard pressed to discriminate against someone who met the standards.

You're the one who brought up "discrimination".  In effect you want to punish people who meet the standards in favor of those who can't or won't do so. 

Errr...what?  You're wrong.  Move on. You apparently don't understand the definition of discrimination

[Grumpy]

"We should spend more of our time focusing on acting and looking like auxiliary members of the USAF.  I am a firm believer that we should have a PT program for officers and that there should be ONE utility and ONE dress uniform for all members.  If you don't meet standards, go on a diet and get on a treadmill or you don't wear the uniform.   Let's stop trying to find the lowest common denominator and set a higher standard.  The ACA has consistently high standards and they are allowed to wear the same uniform as their parent organization with subdued markings even!  We could learn a lot from them."

I've been reading these comments.  The higher standards of training and physical fitness sound great and I'm sure it's all well intended.  But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think anybody has thought about our friends who are handicapped and in wheel chairs.  Do we say, "Sorry, but you're too old, or, you can't participate due to your handicap.  You'll have to leave CAP."

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ---.  I just don't remember seeing a reference for our handicapped members.

[Stonewall]

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ---.  I just don't remember seeing a reference for our handicapped members.

This is why I mentioned this in response to these types of posts...

But remember when CAP was formed in 1941?  It was way for those who were too young, too old, or otherwise not fit to fight to do their part for the war machine.  I think that still holds true today.

[Grumpy]

Thank you, sir.

I'll go back to sleep now.   

[smj58501]

(I am breaking my new years resolution not to post in uniform topics.... oh wait, I still have time before the new year)

From what I can see, you are basically taking a non-digitized version of the Army ACU and applying CAP-distinctive patches and nametapes.

This is the best uniform idea I have seen in ages. I wear ACU's every day, and I can tell you they are hands down more comfortable and functional than BDU's, or any uniform cut like BDU's.

I can only assume the following ACU-like concepts go with this uniform:

• No Ironing
• No Starching (probably the STUPIDIST thing we ever did to a field uniform, in retrospect. I was assimilated into this collective when I was an ROTC cadet, and see now [along with others] what a tremendous waste of resources this was)
• No Dry Cleaning
• Suede boots you don't shine

Thank you for putting forward something useful in the uniform department for a change. Its functional yet professional in appearence, comfortable, and distinctive to CAP without forgetting the military affliation.

[RiverAux]

For those who feel compelled to ditch AF uniforms (horrible idea, but I'll play along for this thread), why not just  adopt the BDU as our corporate uniform after it is finally dropped by the AF (and is therefore no longer an AF uniform)?   At least it maintains our connection to the AF by using one of their old uniforms. 

This has the added advantage of the fact that many of our members already have this uniform and won't have to buy anything new. 

(yes, this is a modification of one of my own proposals to use the BDU as our corporate uniform after CAP gets approval for ABUs for our AF-style uniform). 

[Stonewall]

^^^Two things.  Maybe three.

1.  Again, unlike your proposal (kudos for stepping up, BTW), my proposal is for one uniform for all.  Not ABUs for the athletes and BDUs for the fat and fuzzy.  But as you detracted from your own proposal, suggesting that we keep BDUs as the one and only utility uniform, I'd be for that.  But since we'd be in a transition stage anyway, let's just start from scratch with a very functional uniform.  Wearing BDUs and a version of ACUs, I admit that the ACU set-up is 10x more functional, comfortable and user-friendly than any pattern on a set of BDUs.

2.  We've already ditched the AF uniform in the form of a blue flight suit and Blue BDUs.  Not to mention the TPU.  Which, by the way, with a few modifications I'd be okay with if we could all be in the same service uniform.

3.  I don't feel compelled to ditch the AF uniforms.  I feel compelled to be in one uniform for all members.  If tomorrow the AF or whoever is in charge said "everyone, regardless of weight and grooming, can wear the AF uniform".  I'd throw out my idea in a second.

[RiverAux]

Uh, for the purposes of this thread I meant that EVERYONE should wear the BDUs once they are no longer AF-style uniforms.  No ABUs. 

We've already ditched the AF uniform in the form of a blue flight suit and Blue BDUs.

No, a tiny minority of members have done so.  Most are still wearing BDUs. 

[JayT]

I don't think that adopting a completely different uniform is the answer at all.

First, in my experience, the majority of cadets I know get their uniforms from local surplus stores. I've never actually purchased a uniform item from Vanguard (stocked up on my branch  and name tapes back when it was still CAPMart), and the only thing I ever ordered from the Hock was a service jacket. My uniforms were paid for in cash at surplus stores, or through other sources. So having a uniform that's no gonna be 'off the rack' is a no no. I can get blue flight suits, utility suits,  flight jackets, M65s, and gortex jackets at my local surplus place.

Second, the ACU is an Army uniform. It was designed by the Army, for the Army, and the US Army is the only one in the world, for all intents and purposes, wearing it. So even through it's not the same pattern as the ACU, this uniform is the same cut. Is this really any better then having fat n fuzzies in BDUs?

There's nothing wrong with our current system. Right now, I'm within the H and W standards for the BDUs, but I still wear the blue version for a number of reasons. If/When the ABU comes out, we'll see.

[NIN]

Second, the ACU is an Army uniform. It was designed by the Army, for the Army, and the US Army is the only one in the world, for all intents and purposes, wearing it. So even through it's not the same pattern as the ACU, this uniform is the same cut. Is this really any better then having fat n fuzzies in BDUs?

I dunno, even though I wear ACUs part of the time, the first thought I had upon seeing Stonewall's photo was "Whoa, where'd he get a set of Satin 300s?" (Satin 300s were the French Foreign Legion's combat uniform in the 1970s.  They were an OD two-piece uniform with zippered pockets and usually tightly tailored)

If its in digital camo, then its Army ACUs. Otherwise, its a green uniform with clever pockets and a funny collar.

[JayT]

Second, the ACU is an Army uniform. It was designed by the Army, for the Army, and the US Army is the only one in the world, for all intents and purposes, wearing it. So even through it's not the same pattern as the ACU, this uniform is the same cut. Is this really any better then having fat n fuzzies in BDUs?

I dunno, even though I wear ACUs part of the time, the first thought I had upon seeing Stonewall's photo was "Whoa, where'd he get a set of Satin 300s?" (Satin 300s were the French Foreign Legion's combat uniform in the 1970s.  They were an OD two-piece uniform with zippered pockets and usually tightly tailored)

If its in digital camo, then its Army ACUs. Otherwise, its a green uniform with clever pockets and a funny collar.

Well, look at it this way. BDU's are a specific uniform, right? We refer to them as BDU's no matter what pattern they are.

I just don't think that going completely different is the answer. I'd prefer to see ABU's, then a uniform with a different color but the same cut.

[FlyingTerp]

Like a lot of folks, I'm torn on Stonewall's uniform proposal.

As I see it here are....
The Positives:  I would wear it.  I think its great that everyone could look uniform in a uniform.  It would look appropriate next to RM folks in ABUs, ACUs, flightsuits, etc.  Its a big improvement over BBDUs and more functional and easier to maintain than BDUs.

We could keep black leather combat boots and save some serious cash over the sage suede ones for the ABU (have you seen the price of those boots  ).

I don't think the AF would have any problem with it.  Its totally distinctive and professional.

The Negatives:  Its not an AF uniform and possibly a "slippery slope" to the AF saying - "you have this, you don't need AF uniforms."

One compromise would be to put cadets in the ABU and all seniors in something like Stonewall proposal.

Kirt - thanks for putting your KBU together.  Possible solutions are always better threads than those rehashing problems...

[DogCollar]

I would wear it...and I am within the AF H&W regulations (not to mention grooming!!).  Would this be the uniform to replace ALL other uniforms?  Including service class uniforms?

I would second the motion to keep cadets in AF style uniforms.

[Eeyore]

I just like the nifty pockets   

[O-Rex]

The ABU in OD green reminds me of the old Army MOPP gear.....

[Hawk200]

The ABU in OD green reminds me of the old Army MOPP gear.....

I was wondering what that was reminding me of, but I couldn't place it.

[NIN]

Well, look at it this way. BDU's are a specific uniform, right? We refer to them as BDU's no matter what pattern they are.

I just don't think that going completely different is the answer. I'd prefer to see ABU's, then a uniform with a different color but the same cut.

BDUs as a term has become as ubiquitous as "Kleenex".  BDUs of other colors are generally given a modifier (ie. "Blue BDUs") versus "cammies" (same as "woodland BDUs" in Marine-speak) or CUUs (Navy for BDU).

I could call 'em "OD ACUs" and still be *close*.

BTW, this was the best short-term Satin 300 image I could find:

[culpies]

The concept is good, but my only comment would be to follow the CAP regulation when the OD fatiges was used by CAP. Namely rank on the collor rather than the army style. USAF wears the rank insignia on the collar with the ABU, so CAP probably should follow. Historically CAP has always worn rank on the collar (or NCO rank on the sleeves) of the work uniforms.

FYI
When the AF wears the ACU, we wear the rank right there per Army regs

[SARMedTech]

Assuming the components of the KBU could be obtained easily and without an increase in price over camo BDUs, I would happily wear what Kirt has laid out. There have been a lot of folks saying "yeah its great, BUT..." but there really dont seem to be any practical objections to it, ie it would be hard to get, it would be more expensive, the fabric or cut is impractical, etc. In the short time I I have been around there have been countless uniform proposals and this seems the most practical of them all. If we could get the minority to let go of the "I dont want to see fat and fuzzies in the same uniform as me, they must wear something else" mentality, I think it makes an ideal all for one uniform. There is NO reason that we need to wear camo whatsoever, in fact as has been pointed out at great length before, camo can hinder certain ground team activities, namely SAR. The uniform is (more or less) the same color as the flight suit, the same cut as the ABUs. I cant tell if its the new Tru-Spec TDU or not (Kirt help me out here) but if its not, the TDU would be an excellent source for this look. Ive worn them, have a pair in khaki and theyre great. As I say, if we can let go of the things that there is no practical reason for, this is the uniform to go with. I dont see any valid reason why not.

I say:

1. KBUs
2. AF style service dress with blue pants and white shirt
3. Green nomex as appropriate
4. Everyone wears the same "mess dress"

we eliminate all the different name tags and plates, trim down the regs that say this can be worn with this uniform but not that one and bingo, bango, bongo! uniforms drop off the radar as it were as number 1 on the hit parade of CAP discussions. Certainly if the USCGAUX can do it, so can CAP.