Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[cnitas]

Sir,

I am not up to speed on ACA uniforms and how close they are to parent services.
Does the ACA have a written justification of any sort as to why the uiniform is used?

[cnitas]

And it is the proponent of change that must bear the burden of justifying a change; not the reverse.

Otherwise it is less of an academic "debate" than a run of the mill BS session typically held in a freshman dorm accompanied by a lot of beer.

Look, change of some sort is inevitable.  I would personally like us to remain in AF uniforms, and in fact I would like us to become less distinctive.  I would also like to justify this point of view.  What I am seeing when I (and others) try to justify it with real solid reasons, is that it is not so easy.   

By coming up with good solid reasons why we wear the uniform, and putting it on paper in I dunno a new version of 39-1, we can strive as an organization to align our uniform decisions with the fundamental justifications.  This should have the long term effect of making the uniform a non-issue.  Something it has not been in the last several years.

And what is up with the drunk freshman comments? They seem a little out of place when we are trying to have a discussion.  If the discussion is beneath you, please feel free to go on to the next uniform thread.

And fwiw identifying problems is not bad-mouthing.

Mark, what you said was "without AF uniforms, we would have a poor program (as in no cadets). "

I dunno, but implying that cadets are so shallow that what they wear is the most important factor in retention sounds like bad-mouthing to me.

Or did I misread your statement?

Ok, do you think a cadet program with no cadets is high speed or poor?
Again, I was reiterating what people had said already when they were against golf shirts for cadets, and like it or not, without the military environment the uniform creates, the cadet program as we know it is gone:

"Go ask a cadet if he would have joined without the AF uniforms. I would be seriously doubtful if many said yes."

"I guess we could do with out military drill and ceremonies, customs and courtesies.  Hmmmm...  I guess that leaves us with building model rockets and cadets spending 4 to 7 years in CAP to go on 6 free orientation flights.  AWESOME PROGRAM!!!"

"I guess there's always the Boy Scouts with their Aviation Merit Badge."

[COL Land]

Does the ACA have a written justification of any sort as to why the uniform is used?

"Why" is the uniform is used?   Because we are a militarily-structured program, which is patterned after the Armed Forces.   Remembering that we are a totally different culture (no necessarily better, just different), most of us can't relate to the idea of having pseudo-military (corporate) uniforms.   We're pretty black and white, either you're in uniform, or you're not.   The written justification can be found throughout several of our regulations, found at www.acacadets.org .

Back to your question, I suppose the reason "why" is  driven by:

   a.   When hanging out with Romans, dress like a Roman.   Our attitude is that members of the ACA Officers' Corps are "non-paid professionals" and that we should be as professional at our mission as our active duty, reserve and guard colleagues are at their mission.  (The term "volunteer" is pretty well taboo in ACA...it's a cultural thing...it prevents the common nonsense of "...uh, I'm a volunteer, what are they gonna do? Fire me?"  We don't use the fact that we are volunteers as an excuse to be half-way about anything).  To be accepted as military professionals, we have to look and act like military professionals.

   b.   One Corps, one image.  We set the uniform (Uni- =  singular   form =  image or look) of the day, and that's what everyone wears.   This includes utility, PT and dress uniforms, based on DoD standards.   We even have a standardized PT uniform (summer and winter) which is required for all personnel.   When you see an ACA unit in PT formation, all hands are wearing the same thing, including the officers.   With the exception of the required modifications (nametapes, patches, etc.), most of our folks fit in and look like our active duty, guard and reserve colleagues while in dress and utility uniforms.   That goes a long way towards acceptance by military folks, and it's been proven time and time again.

   c.   Force Multipliers.   We are not the official "auxiliary" of the Army.   However, our officers, and even Cadet NCOs have been called upon several times to augment various community relations functions for the Army.  We're generally seen as "part of the team."   In part, because they look "like Romans."   

I'm sure there are other reasons, but you get the idea.

Respectfully,

[Ned]

Mark,

I think the reason you having trouble with your "academic exercise" is probably because it appears that you are not really asking questions seeking an answer.

Whether you see it or not, you have already indicated that you think there is a "problem" (too many uniform combinations), and have already arrived at a "solution" (making us less distinctive, "prioritizing what to cut", etc), and are now looking for us to give you the reasons for your pre-determined solution to your self-defined problem.

And when others have given you reasons, you have agreed with some, disagreed with others, and made unsupported assertions (e.g what the Air Force thinks about CAP uniforms.)

This is most assuredly not a debate, academic or otherwise.

A debate is a reasoned discourse or argument or an attempt to pursuade by logic.

This is reason that these kinds of uniform discussions go on for ever and resolve nothing.

Hence the comparison to the freshman dorm debates.

(In which I've participated in more than my fair share, BTW)


The really sad part is how these uniform discussions distract us from improving the substance of our program. 

No really, look at the stats here on CAP Talk.

The "Uniform and Awards" section has more posts -- over 18,000 -- than the entire Operations and Cadet Programs sections added together.

If the discussion is beneath you, please feel free to go on to the next uniform thread.

Offer accepted.


Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[davedove]

The very fact that there is currently a committee working on uniform issues shows that there is something to "fix" with the uniforms.

What Mark is trying to do is come up with the underlying reason that CAP is wearing uniforms, specifically Air Force style.  In that way, any decisions about the uniform will have a directing force.

That way, any changes will be directed to fulfilling that reason, instead of just "I feel the uniform needs to be more like this."

Examining why we do things is never a bad idea.  Otherwise we are doomed to always do things "because that's the way it's done."

And maybe if the the direction is defined, the number of uniform discussions will reduce.

[davedove]

To see what it said about uniforms, I went back and read the Constitution and Bylaws.  Here is what I found in Article XVIII:

2. Except as otherwise restricted by law, the Corporation may develop and adopt such insignia, uniforms, emblems and badges, descriptive and designating marks, and words and phrases for use by the members of the Civil Air Patrol as it may consider necessary or advisable in carrying out the objects and purposes of the Corporation.

So, the Corporation may adopt uniforms, etc. to complete its purposes, but it doesn't say anything about the Air Force uniform.  So, it is a valid question to ask why any particular uniform was adopted if one is trying to make any uniform changes.

[cnitas]

We don't wear uniforms for us.  We wear them for people who look at us.

Pulled this from 'is it a uniform if nobody can see it' thread.  I think this idea has some merit.  

[LittleIronPilot]

Ummmm....am I just dense, or do we not wear the USAF style uniform because we spend a good bit of our time (and all of it before the stupid lawyer-driven split personality crude) as the Auxiliary of the Air Force?

[davedove]

Ummmm....am I just dense, or do we not wear the USAF style uniform because we spend a good bit of our time (and all of it before the stupid lawyer-driven split personality crude) as the Auxiliary of the Air Force?

Well, technically, we COULD do our entire mission, Auxiliary portion included, without any uniforms whatsoever.  The uniforms are a tool, and I think an important one, used to fulfill our missions.  And has been stated before, one reason for the Air Force uniform is to show solidarity with big brother blue.

[Dragoon]

Some thoughts.

Our cadet program is very much a military style program.  To remove military style uniforms would require a total rewrite.  To go to a non-USAF uniform that is still military style would probably cost a lot more.  Plus, the uniforms help in recruiting (kids wanna feel like warriors).

On the senior side, it's not anywhere near as critical.  We don't run a military style program - ask any cadet.  We don't respect the authority of grade - only position.   In spite of our titles, we run pretty much like most non-profits.

We do pick up some seniors because they specifically like to wear USAF suits.  On the other hand, since we've got even more members who DON'T want to wear USAF uniform (count the golf shirts at a SAR) or can't (grooming and weight), we only end up with SOME of our folks in USAF suits.  The non-USAF suit wearers seem to do just fine in terms of duties.  

I don't buy the "solidarity with USAF"argument, I'm afraid.  USAF personnel deal with the blazer/golf shirt crowd the same way they deal with the Service Dress/BDU crown - to them it really doesn't matter.  USAF is fine dealing with USAF civilians without uniforms - they get the concept fully, and could easily deal with us the same way. You don't need a uniform to be on the Air Force Team.  In fact, when you wear one without the resident street cred (you know, like actually being in the military) you draw more attention to your "non-AirForciness."

Soo..I can only think of three useful reasons for seniors to wear USAF uniforms.

1.  Some will be able to pick 'em up cheap at DRMO, thrift shops etc.

2.  If you're a CP guy or gal, it makes you look like the cadets, which is a benefit in interoperating with them.

3.  It makes some folks feel good, which affects their personal morale and perhaps recruiting/retention.

The big reason against wearing them is the public just ain't never gonna understand a "military" organization where the military uniform is optional.  It looks rather odd, and requires constant explaining.

Making the corporate suits more like the USAF suits would limit this negative.

[ddelaney103]

Well, as far as we can tell, the AF, or at least the part in charge, doesn't care.  The Statement of Work says we can wear AF or Corp uniforms and does not indicate a preference.

Having been an inmate Airman at CENTAF, I can tell you that if AF has a beef about your uniform, they'll be only too eager to let you know.

[cnitas]

So far we have:

1.  To show solidarity with USAF
2.  If you're a CP guy or gal, it makes you look like the cadets, which is a benefit in interoperating with them.
3.  It makes some folks feel good, which affects their personal morale and perhaps recruiting/retention.
4.  I will add another : We have a history of wearing military uniforms.


Are there any others we have missed?  So far this is not exactly a mandate.

[Bluelakes 13]

"Dragon's" post is excellent. 

I'll add just one thing without rehashing what people have said already: My main issue with our uniforms is that we do not have a uniform.  We need to pick one uniform that everyone can wear (one formal, one utility).  If that, by definition, means that the USAF-style uniform won't be an option, then so be it. All the reasons folks have given for keeping the senior USAF-style uniforms (solidarity, professionalism, image, etc) I would turn around and say they are the exact reasons we should have one uniform.

[cnitas]

The conclusion we are coming to is that cadets ought to be in AF uniforms, and there are good reasons for seniors to wear exclusivly the corporates.  Is this an acceptable alternative to our current situation?  Is it better or worse?

[DogCollar]

I agree that cadets should be in AF style uniforms.  However, I'm not so sure that "requiring" ANY uniform for Seniors is appropriate.  I think it's fine and dandy for seniors to wear AF style uniforms, as long as they satisfy regulations.  I think it's fine for a senior to wear corporate uniform (although, I agree there should be fewer options), I also believe that the golf shirt/slacks is as good an alternative as any for senior members.  What we should insist on for seniors in or out of uniform performing CAP functions is: 1. Be clean, pressed and professional.  2.  Be appropirately attired for function and surroundings.  Just my .02.

[Dragoon]

I agree that cadets should be in AF style uniforms.  However, I'm not so sure that "requiring" ANY uniform for Seniors is appropriate.  I think it's fine and dandy for seniors to wear AF style uniforms, as long as they satisfy regulations.  I think it's fine for a senior to wear corporate uniform (although, I agree there should be fewer options), I also believe that the golf shirt/slacks is as good an alternative as any for senior members.  What we should insist on for seniors in or out of uniform performing CAP functions is: 1. Be clean, pressed and professional.  2.  Be appropirately attired for function and surroundings.  Just my .02.

The downside is there is no "uniform" involved in having everyone wear what they want.  The focus becomes on the individual (look at me) rather than the team (look at us).

Part and parcel of the military culture we claim to emulate is unit before self.  Uniforms are one way to subtley reinforce that concept - both to ourselves and to our customers.

[RiverAux]

The conclusion we are coming to is that cadets ought to be in AF uniforms, and there are good reasons for seniors to wear exclusivly the corporates.  Is this an acceptable alternative to our current situation?  Is it better or worse?

I must have missed where that was the general consensus.  I have done polls on CAPTalk in the past that showed extremely strong support for AF-style uniforms among the people here. 

[mikeylikey]

I don't buy the "solidarity with USAF"argument, I'm afraid.  USAF personnel deal with the blazer/golf shirt crowd the same way they deal with the Service Dress/BDU crown - to them it really doesn't matter.  USAF is fine dealing with USAF civilians without uniforms - they get the concept fully, and could easily deal with us the same way. You don't need a uniform to be on the Air Force Team.  In fact, when you wear one without the resident street cred (you know, like actually being in the military) you draw more attention to your "non-AirForciness."

I think the AF recently changed how almost 1/5 of their civilian employees dress for work.  The Reservists who are also AF civilians are now required to wear their uniforms if I am not mistaken.  I am not in the AF......someone there will have to fill me in exactly, but they did run a piece on it in AF-Army-Navy-MC-Times a few months back.

[ddelaney103]

I don't buy the "solidarity with USAF"argument, I'm afraid.  USAF personnel deal with the blazer/golf shirt crowd the same way they deal with the Service Dress/BDU crown - to them it really doesn't matter.  USAF is fine dealing with USAF civilians without uniforms - they get the concept fully, and could easily deal with us the same way. You don't need a uniform to be on the Air Force Team.  In fact, when you wear one without the resident street cred (you know, like actually being in the military) you draw more attention to your "non-AirForciness."

I think the AF recently changed how almost 1/5 of their civilian employees dress for work.  The Reservists who are also AF civilians are now required to wear their uniforms if I am not mistaken.  I am not in the AF......someone there will have to fill me in exactly, but they did run a piece on it in AF-Army-Navy-MC-Times a few months back.

What you are talking about are "Air Technicians."

In the Guard and Reserve, they have a lot of full time employees.  Some of them are Active Guard/Reserve, or AGR's.  These people are the same as AD types except they always stay with their unit as opposed to PCS'ing every few years.

The other category are Air Technicians.  They are Traditional Guardsmen/Reservists who also have a full time job at the unit as civilian employees.  When they are not drilling or on AD, they are treated just like civilian employees for purposes such as pay and benefits - they earn overtime and things like that.

Traditionally, Air Tech's in the Guard wear uniforms to work even as civilians.  AFRes, OTOH, wore civilian clothes when they weren't on orders.  Commander AFRes decided a few months ago to change it to uniforms all the time.

Air Tech's are a weird bunch - like when my old boss, wearing an E-6 suit but acting as the Local Shop Steward (they're unionized) has to go in to the O-6 office to resolve problems w/management.

So yes, civilians who are Reservists have to wear their uniforms to their "civilian" work, but only to a narrow category of civilians who are working as Air Technicians.

[riffraff]

Why do we need AF uniforms? Short answer: we don't.  I would concede the USAF uniforms are appropriate for cadets but seniors could get along quite well without them.

As CAP moves towards serving new 'customers' (HLS, BICE, state/local agencies), one could argue that some form of standalone CAP uniform would be more appropriate. I suspect this move towards new missions is largely responsible for the recent changes to aircraft/vehicle markings and probably the new command patch.

Aside from the above, the only way to get everyone in the same uniforms is to go corporate. It's the only common category for fit, fat, and fuzzies. One team, one uniform.