Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[cnitas]

So it's OK to just can those uniforms because a cadet has to buy insignia? Pretty flimsy justification.

Well, if the total cost for the uniform after it is given for 'free' is greater than the cost of a golf shirt...YES! it is OK to 'can' the uniform.  How is that flimsy?

Insignia and other required items:
Hat device 5.25
CAP cutouts 3.25
Name plate 2.75
Belt 3.50
Shoes $46
All current prices from the Hock.

So your 'free' uniform actually costs $60.75 for the required items for a C/AB.  This does not include service jacket, any cold weather outerwear, additional rank, ribbons, etc.  The total cost spent for just the service uniform could easily reach several hundred dollars as a cadet gets their Mitchell with shoulder boards, epaulet sleeves, etc.

[Hawk200]

If CAP did not have a cadet program, I would not give a second thought about not wearing a uniform.  But then again, I wouldn't give a second thought about joining another group, be it a VFD, Volunteer SAR, Scouts, or whatever.  Just so happens, several of the types of organizations I'd be a part of have uniforms.  If I found an interest in something that didn't have a uniform associated with it, I'd do it. 

I would agree. Been thinking about the Red Cross for a couple of years now. Seems like I can never find the time. I may still someday.

[Eclipse]

......well, we'd probably not be having this conversation in the first place.

SMUG ALERT!

[Hawk200]

So it's OK to just can those uniforms because a cadet has to buy insignia? Pretty flimsy justification.

Well, if the total cost for the uniform after it is given for 'free' is greater than the cost of a golf shirt...YES! it is OK to 'can' the uniform.  How is that flimsy?

Insignia and other required items:
Hat device 5.25
CAP cutouts 3.25
Name plate 2.75
Belt 3.50
Shoes $46
All current prices from the Hock.

So your 'free' uniform actually costs $60.75 for the required items for a C/AB.  This does not include service jacket, any cold weather outerwear, additional rank, ribbons, etc.  The total cost spent for just the service uniform could easily reach several hundred dollars as a cadet gets their Mitchell with shoulder boards, epaulet sleeves, etc.

OK, you've pointed that out. Now show me how you're going to teach attention to detail with just a golf shirt.

"Gee cadet, you're out of uniform. You're shirt is on inside out."

Come to think of it, shoes have been included for all the cadets in my unit. Not sure why you're not getting yours.

That aside, let's get down to the basic issue. Why don't you like the Air Force uniforms? Your dislike is obvious. Why? Why are you part of an organization associated with the Air Force when you don't like their clothes?

[Monty]

CAP's use of the AF-style uniform is means to satisfy many people's psychological needs.  We tend to wrap those needs around concepts and ideas (sometimes to the best of our ability, sometimes not so much).

---Some people NEED to know that others SEE them as special; it's comforting for many
---Some people NEED to have a symbol around which to rally; a flag, a shoulder patch, etc.
---Some people NEED to feel that they're making up for what could have been, but either (a) didn't happen, (b) couldn't happen, or (c) should've happened
---Some people NEED to feel motivations and rewards embodied through materialistic awards, such as pins and badges, hats and belts.

NONE OF THESE are bad, condescending, or the like......and this sort of thing is a continuum, upon which some folks lean more one way or the other vs. being extreme end or extreme opposite end.


Fact is fact – some folks have to find their true motivation in materialism, others' association, or  through the works of others in which they had no role, 60+ years ago(e.g., "tradition")

If all people didn't really care about what others thought of their contributions or inclusions (sort of like what most of us heard as lessons from our parents), if all people were more inspired by association through concept verses an object, if folks were pretty well at peace for having never become a military officer or leader of a charge over San Juan Hill, and if we weren't so materialistic in terms of measuring success with "stuff"......

......well, we'd probably not be having this conversation in the first place.

Whooooaa....talk about condescending, no matter how you tried to explain that it is not.

So someone just doing something for no reason but to do it is somehow noble but no one else is? BTW...those associations ARE important. Even if it was just the CAP uniform, it would still be an association with THAT group.

Smug...condescending...maybe so.  I'm part of it also.

Shoot, can't be part of the issue if I can't admit it too.  I have stuff that I want folks to see and covet - not necesarilly CAP stuff, but sure...

Thing is, I can admit that.  I don't think many can, due to the weird feeling we get from our culture where we're taught that vanity ain't cool, but we do it anyway.

Shoot, I can admit it and mean it.

If that makes me smug or condescending, then I'm guilty.

[cnitas]

Ok, so we have the following reasons:

1. Cadets and many Seniors like the uniform (for various reasons)

2. We are associated with the AF, so we should wear them as a show of solidarity with them.

3.  The cadet program would be Boy Scouts-lite without the military trappings/environment

4.  The uniform adds a sense of authority while on ES missions.


Any other good reasons to wear AF uniforms?

[davedove]

Who's going to believe you if your whole organization wears something obiously non-military claims to be associated with the military?

I have to take issue with that statement.  There are thousands of people who do it everyday, myself included.  They are called DoD civilians.  They are an integral part of the military workforce, some even deployed.  You don't have to wear a uniform to be associated with the military.

[Hawk200]

Who's going to believe you if your whole organization wears something obiously non-military claims to be associated with the military?

I have to take issue with that statement.  There are thousands of people who do it everyday, myself included.  They are called DoD civilians.  They are an integral part of the military workforce, some even deployed.  You don't have to wear a uniform to be associated with the military.

I'm fully aware of DOD civilians, and am very respectful of their service. And I don't know anyone that has ever asked a DOD civilian where their uniform is when they know what they are. Key word there is "civilian". We're talking a paramilitary organization associated with a branch of the military.

Now if a DOD civilian just told someone "I'm with the Army" without clarifying thier civilian status, they probably would be asked where their uniform was.

However, there are situations where DOD civilians wear military uniforms. Even AAFES members going to the desert get them. I've seen the photos, and will probably see them while I'm there.

[Hawk200]

Ok, so we have the following reasons:

1. Cadets and many Seniors like the uniform (for various reasons)

2. We are associated with the AF, so we should wear them as a show of solidarity with them.

3.  The cadet program would be Boy Scouts-lite without the military trappings/environment

4.  The uniform adds a sense of authority while on ES missions.


Any other good reasons to wear AF uniforms?

To be honest, I like the team aspect. We're all part of one. It's not just solidarity with the Air Force, it's solidarity with each other. I have a proper sense of pride when I teach others the same attention to detail that I've learned.

Be it a BDU/ABU, and blue BDU's, the insignia is still the same (for the most part). It says "Civil Air Patrol" on both styles of uniforms. It's all part of the same team. There are reasons why we have some separate ones. The problem is too many separate ones.

[Stonewall]

Well, if the total cost for the uniform after it is given for 'free' is greater than the cost of a golf shirt...YES! it is OK to 'can' the uniform.  How is that flimsy?

Insignia and other required items:
Hat device 5.25
CAP cutouts 3.25
Name plate 2.75
Belt 3.50
Shoes $46
All current prices from the Hock.

So your 'free' uniform actually costs $60.75 for the required items for a C/AB.  This does not include service jacket, any cold weather outerwear, additional rank, ribbons, etc.  The total cost spent for just the service uniform could easily reach several hundred dollars as a cadet gets their Mitchell with shoulder boards, epaulet sleeves, etc.

Playing high school football is "free" too.  But find a high school football player that doesn't fork out $100+ for all the stuff the school doesn't give them.

[Eclipse]

Playing high school football is "free" too.  But find a high school football player that doesn't fork out $100+ for all the stuff the school doesn't give them.

Another of my peeves - life is choice, make yours and go with it, but don't complain "x" is too expensive when you spend all your money on "y".

[Stonewall]

Who's going to believe you if your whole organization wears something obiously non-military claims to be associated with the military?

I have to take issue with that statement.  There are thousands of people who do it everyday, myself included.  They are called DoD civilians.  They are an integral part of the military workforce, some even deployed.  You don't have to wear a uniform to be associated with the military.

I'm fully aware of DOD civilians, and am very respectful of their service. And I don't know anyone that has ever asked a DOD civilian where their uniform is when they know what they are. Key word there is "civilian". We're talking a paramilitary organization associated with a branch of the military.

Now if a DOD civilian just told someone "I'm with the Army" without clarifying thier civilian status, they probably would be asked where their uniform was.

However, there are situations where DOD civilians wear military uniforms. Even AAFES members going to the desert get them. I've seen the photos, and will probably see them while I'm there.

Yep, I've seen AAFES employees in BDUs in full battle rattle.  I've got pictures of some friends (fellow DOD employees) in DCUs with their nametapes that say "DOD CIVILIAN" on them.   Now, on a regular basis, no, you won't find the DOD HR lady on base wearing a uniform, but again, they're civilians.  They didn't have to go to boot camp, qualify on weapons, march, use customs and courtesies, etc.

[Stonewall]

Playing high school football is "free" too.  But find a high school football player that doesn't fork out $100+ for all the stuff the school doesn't give them.

Another of my peeves - life is choice, make yours and go with it, but don't complain "x" is too expensive when you spend all your money on "y".

I've been in CAP for a long time.  As a senior, I've always worked with cadets, either as CC, DCC, or Leadership Officer.  I can count on 1 hand the amount of genuine cost issues that have come up.  Without shining a spotlight on that cadet and their family, we took care of our own.  Just as a high school football coach, teammate, or "football parent" would.

[CAP_truth]

If a member does not want to conform to the rules of the organization they could convert to senior member with out rank, They could become a parton member and not have to worry about any uniforms. They could wear their hair long, gain as much weight as they wish, and have a ZZ-Top beard. BUT NOT WHILE THEY HAVE TO WEAR A MILITARY UNIFORM. It is each members choice. Don't say your a Maj. or Lt. Col. walking around out of uniform. This is my opinion,

[RogueLeader]

If a cadet was in ES, a full set of BBDUs are about $90 from the hock.  So for less than the price of 1 service jacket ($165 from the hock) , cadets can have 2 out of 3 combos, and still participate in all activity except ES flying missions.

1)  Who said they had to be in nomex anyways

2)  Cadets under 18 can't be Mission Aircrew qualified.

[Trung Si Ma]

To be honest, I like the team aspect. We're all part of one. It's not just solidarity with the Air Force, it's solidarity with each other.

Best answer I've seen and one that fits my personal definition of the reasons for CAP to wear any uniform.

I'm not anti-uniform, just don't particularly want to wear one if I have another choice.  I'll be in Gray & Whites or Blue & Whites (depending on which one I grab first) for the Squadron Christmas party next week and I do own Blue Nomex and the utility uniform.  I just LIKE the golf shirt, particularly when traveling for other business.

[Eclipse]

If a cadet was in ES, a full set of BBDUs are about $90 from the hock.  So for less than the price of 1 service jacket ($165 from the hock) , cadets can have 2 out of 3 combos, and still participate in all activity except ES flying missions.

1)  Who said they had to be in nomex anyways

2)  Cadets under 18 can't be Mission Aircrew qualified.

Not to mention the fact that the Hock is by no means the cheapest / best place to buy uniforms, and IMHO  CADETS should be buying >new< service jackets.

They are fairly plentiful on the secondary market, and considering how some grow, are not worth the expense.  A lot of units have exchange programs with like-new jackets dating back to the Major Nelson era.

[mikeylikey]

Another of my peeves - life is choice, make yours and go with it, but don't complain "x" is too expensive when you spend all your money on "y".

I knew I should have bought "x" when the price was down.  "Y" just dropped a half percent and E-Trade is telling me I lost everything.  Is it a recession......perhaps. 

Oh wrong thread sorry, but if anyone wants to buy some "y" the going rate is good.

[cnitas]

Playing high school football is "free" too.  But find a high school football player that doesn't fork out $100+ for all the stuff the school doesn't give them.

So it goes like this:

Me: I have a uniform solution that would cost $60 for cadets to be in uniform.
- But they get Free uniforms now

Me:  Um, there not totally free, in fact cadets often spend lots of money on all the uniform, acessories and parts.

- Well, HS Football players spend over $100 on a free program

Me:  I have a uniform solution that would only cost $60.

[flyguy06]

Part of the goal of the cadet program is to introduce them to military careers and prepare them for military training, should that be there choice.

I'll have to disagree with that.  From CAPR 52-16:

1-1. GENERAL. The mission of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is to provide the youth of our nation a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide services to the United States Air Force and the local community.

So, the mission is not to get cadets ready for military training.  I'm afraid if it were, there would be several parents pulling their children out of the program tomorrow.

Now, we do operate in a military style environment, so it can transfer over pretty easily.  But, we wouldn't have to have Air Force uniforms for that.  It could be done with any type of uniform.

We use the military as a tool to teach leadership. SO, that being the case, the military environment is very important to the success of our mission.