Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[cnitas]

I decided to take this to another thread since this is off topic for LTC White's Uniform Committee changes.

Maj Piersall's idea will cost the cadets about $200. and means no more free USAF uniforms for cadets. Great idea we don't need cadets in CAP's flying club anyway.

$200 Golf shirts?  Wow, where do you shop? 
ES is an optional activity.  Cadets are not required to buy the BBDUs or the Nomex Flight suit, AND Last time I checked you can fly o-flights in the golf shirt. 

I estimate it would cost about $30 for the shirt and $30 for the pants.  That is a lot cheaper than the current system.  And they could wear the pants outside of CAP too!

If a cadet was in ES, a full set of BBDUs are about $90 from the hock.  So for less than the price of 1 service jacket ($165 from the hock) , cadets can have 2 out of 3 combos, and still participate in all activity except ES flying missions.

To be clear, since many did not 'get it' before, I am putting this out there for us to determine why we even need AF uniforms at all, not because I think it is a good idea. 

What purpose do they serve that cannot be filled with a cheaper civilian alternative? And is this purpose worth the extra cost to members?
Do military uniforms help/hurt our mission?
Do military uniforms help/hurt recruiting/retaining seniors/cadets?

In my opinion, we cannot have discussion on changing uniforms in meaningful ways until these fundamental questions have been answered.

[Cobra1597]

Part of the goal of the cadet program is to introduce them to military careers and prepare them for military training, should that be there choice. Wearing the uniform plays a pretty vital role in that, if you ask me.

[Eclipse]

We are still an auxiliary service of the USAF, at least last I checked.

'nuff said.

[davedove]

Part of the goal of the cadet program is to introduce them to military careers and prepare them for military training, should that be there choice.

I'll have to disagree with that.  From CAPR 52-16:

1-1. GENERAL. The mission of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is to provide the youth of our nation a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide services to the United States Air Force and the local community.

So, the mission is not to get cadets ready for military training.  I'm afraid if it were, there would be several parents pulling their children out of the program tomorrow.

Now, we do operate in a military style environment, so it can transfer over pretty easily.  But, we wouldn't have to have Air Force uniforms for that.  It could be done with any type of uniform.

[Hawk200]

What purpose does it serve to be associated with the Air Force, and not wear a uniform that is remotely similar?

Why should cadets have to purchase a uniform when the Air Force will actually provide them one for free? It may take a few months, but it's still a free uniform.

Do military uniforms help our mission? In ways. Having an association with Big Blue goes a long way when you're trying to run a mission. Wearing their uniform (or a variation of it) when you have to go turn off an ELT gives a lot of weight when someone doesn't want to let you in. That mission is a Federal one, administered by the Air Force. Impeding a CAP member in the course of his duties is asking for trouble.

Do they help when recruiting? Yes. Cadets eat it up. Three quarters of the cadets in my unit want to go military, and they are their to learn about it from us. I see a lot more cadets join CAP than the Explorers. It's also the same reason that the various JROTC's are successful. We give up miiltary uniforms, we may as well give up cadets. Some of them have done the Boy Scout thing, they're with us for something new.

On the senior side, some join for the military aspect. Our DCC didn't take the opportunity to go to the Academy when she had the chance, but she's getting the opportunity to serve in the AF uniform now. And she is very good at it.

Either way, we're associated with the Air Force. If we don't choose to wear theirs, they don't really have any need for us when the most obvious association is gone.

Also, doing away with AF uniforms is not even under consideration. We would be better served discussing other things.

Now, we do operate in a military style environment, so it can transfer over pretty easily.  But, we wouldn't have to have Air Force uniforms for that.  It could be done with any type of uniform.

No, it couldn't. Military style environment requires military uniforms. Saying your military when you don't wear an associated uniform isn't straightforward to some. Outright lying to others.

Go ask a cadet if he would have joined without the AF uniforms. I would be seriously doubtful if many said yes.

[cnitas]

We are still an auxiliary service of the USAF, at least last I checked.

'nuff said.

Not quite...

So we are sometimes acting as an auxiliary during AFAMs.  Ok, 99% of the time we are not.  And what effect does this have on what uniforms we should be wearing??

[Trung Si Ma]

What purpose does it serve to be associated with the Air Force...?

So we get their money when we do things for them - ES, AFROTC O-rides, etc

Saying your military when you don't wear an associated uniform isn't straightforward to some. Outright lying to others.

I thought we'd already hashed out the "CAP is not the military" issue.

[cnitas]

Why should cadets have to purchase a uniform when the Air Force will actually provide them one for free? It may take a few months, but it's still a free uniform.

Well, sort of.  They still need to buy uniform shoes, and insignia.  And that is just the service uniform, no outerwear, and still no BDUs or equivalent. I need to go back and see how much that extra stuff costs again

Do military uniforms help our mission? In ways. Having an association with Big Blue goes a long way when you're trying to run a mission. Wearing their uniform (or a variation of it) when you have to go turn off an ELT gives a lot of weight when someone doesn't want to let you in. That mission is a Federal one, administered by the Air Force. Impeding a CAP member in the course of his duties is asking for trouble.

I agree with you there

Do they help when recruiting? Yes. Cadets eat it up. Three quarters of the cadets in my unit want to go military, and they are their to learn about it from us. I see a lot more cadets join CAP than the Explorers. It's also the same reason that the various JROTC's are successful. We give up miiltary uniforms, we may as well give up cadets. Some of them have done the Boy Scout thing, they're with us for something new.

Agreed, cadets like the military uniforms

On the senior side, some join for the military aspect.

And some would not be caught dead in a military uniform

Our DCC didn't take the opportunity to go to the Academy when she had the chance, but she's getting the opportunity to serve in the AF uniform now. And she is very good at it.

Good for her...

Either way, we're associated with the Air Force. If we don't choose to wear theirs, they don't really have any need for us when the most obvious association is gone.

What about all our ES missions? Do they suddenly not need us because of the shirt we wear?

Also, doing away with AF uniforms is not even under consideration. We would be better served discussing other things.

I disagree.  In my original post I explained that if we cannot justify the wear of the uniform, then why do we go through all this gnashing of teeth over it.  Just drop them and be done with it.  I say, lets consider it. 

Now, we do operate in a military style environment, so it can transfer over pretty easily.  But, we wouldn't have to have Air Force uniforms for that.  It could be done with any type of uniform.

No, it couldn't. Military style environment requires military uniforms. Saying your military when you don't wear an associated uniform isn't straightforward to some. Outright lying to others.

I agree with you, but the military environment is not in the mission of the cadet program.

Go ask a cadet if he would have joined without the AF uniforms. I would be seriously doubtful if many said yes.
Again, I agree that the uniform helps recruit cadets

[Stonewall]

Wow.

CAP cadets not wearing USAF type uniforms would be like AFJROTC not wearing USAF type uniforms; Sea Cadets not wearing uniforms.

I guess we could do with out military drill and ceremonies, customs and courtesies.  Hmmmm...  I guess that leaves us with building model rockets and cadets spending 4 to 7 years in CAP to go on 6 free orientation flights.  AWESOME PROGRAM!!!

I guess there's always the Boy Scouts with their Aviation Merit Badge.

[Eclipse]

We are still an auxiliary service of the USAF, at least last I checked.

'nuff said.

Not quite...

So we are sometimes acting as an auxiliary during AFAMs.  Ok, 99% of the time we are not.  And what effect does this have on what uniforms we should be wearing??

Which is why I said >an<, not >the<.

CAP is what it is, the only organization of its kind in the US, offering unique opportunities for service, education and growth.

Accept it for what it is, and understand that its split personality is what affords some of the unique opportunities, and join, serve, or move on to the next booth and serve somewhere else.

I know its only a few people here, but I have a real problem with people who read the same brochures as everyone else (or worse, don't actually read them at all), join an organization, and then start complaining about the requirements, uniforms or missions.

The fact that we have a non-military uniform option at all is a >PLUS< people, not a requirement. It allows for a much larger pool to be presented the opportunity to serve.

[Stonewall]

Now, we do operate in a military style environment, so it can transfer over pretty easily.  But, we wouldn't have to have Air Force uniforms for that.  It could be done with any type of uniform.

No, it couldn't. Military style environment requires military uniforms. Saying your military when you don't wear an associated uniform isn't straightforward to some. Outright lying to others.

Go ask a cadet if he would have joined without the AF uniforms. I would be seriously doubtful if many said yes.

When I joined as a cadet I left Boy Scouts for CAP for two reasons.  Real world ES training and mission opportunities and the military aspect of the program.  At the same time, I found out about Sea Cadets.  But CAP, still had the ES program.  That, and CAP is more military than Sea Cadets.  And the Navy for that matter 

[Hawk200]

I thought we'd already hashed out the "CAP is not the military" issue.

Not military, but paramilitary. We use miltary organization and chain of command. We have squadrons that report to groups (sometimes) that report to wings that report to regions that report to HQ. Same concept as the Air Force, just different terms at some levels.

Who's going to believe you if your whole organization wears something obiously non-military claims to be associated with the military? Some people want their funded flying club, and to be able to call on the Air Force name, but without any of the associated responsibilities.

CAP started on a military model. Now, there are many that don't want to even acknowledge its history.

[cnitas]

Which is why I said >an<, not >the<.

Ok, but that does not answer the question...
So 1% of the time we are 'AN" Aux of the Air Force... so what? Should we wear AF uniforms while on AFAMs? Is that what you are trying to say?

[Hawk200]

Why should cadets have to purchase a uniform when the Air Force will actually provide them one for free? It may take a few months, but it's still a free uniform.

Well, sort of.  They still need to buy uniform shoes, and insignia.  And that is just the service uniform, no outerwear, and still no BDUs or equivalent. I need to go back and see how much that extra stuff costs again

So it's OK to just can those uniforms because a cadet has to buy insignia? Pretty flimsy justification.

On the senior side, some join for the military aspect.

And some would not be caught dead in a military uniform

So the ones that do have no voice, no say in the matter?

Either way, we're associated with the Air Force. If we don't choose to wear theirs, they don't really have any need for us when the most obvious association is gone.

What about all our ES missions? Do they suddenly not need us because of the shirt we wear?

So they won't need us if we're wearing Air Force uniforms? Your argument can go both ways.

Also, doing away with AF uniforms is not even under consideration. We would be better served discussing other things.

I disagree.  In my original post I explained that if we cannot justify the wear of the uniform, then why do we go through all this gnashing of teeth over it.  Just drop them and be done with it.  I say, lets consider it. 

As Col White has related in his thread, dropping the AF uniforms is not even under consideration. Some people would call that a denial of your demand to consider it. They're not going to, why demand something that will be ignored?

Now, we do operate in a military style environment, so it can transfer over pretty easily.  But, we wouldn't have to have Air Force uniforms for that.  It could be done with any type of uniform.

No, it couldn't. Military style environment requires military uniforms. Saying your military when you don't wear an associated uniform isn't straightforward to some. Outright lying to others.

I agree with you, but the military environment is not in the mission of the cadet program.

Yes it is. It's not the mission, but it's part of it.

[Stonewall]

Which is why I said >an<, not >the<.

Ok, but that does not answer the question...
So 1% of the time we are 'AN" Aux of the Air Force... so what? Should we wear AF uniforms while on AFAMs? Is that what you are trying to say?

Who cares about the AUX ON/OFF thing?  Do cadets really care whether or not, at any specific time, that we're AFAUX or not?  I know I don't.  To me, it's only an ES thing that doesn't affect me or the program in any other way.  So far, I have felt no change down at the squadron level regarding the AF AUX ON/OFF thing having come about.

[LittleIronPilot]

As has been said...we are the USAF Auxiliary (most of the time); and truth be told, it is only because of lawyers and legal hair-splitting that the silly double distinction came about.

Get rid of the uniform, get rid of the USAF association, and CAP is done, period.

I just do not get the aversion, sometimes the downright hostility to the military aspect of CAP. Do not like it? Do not join....

[Monty]

CAP's use of the AF-style uniform is means to satisfy many people's psychological needs.  We tend to wrap those needs around concepts and ideas (sometimes to the best of our ability, sometimes not so much).

---Some people NEED to know that others SEE them as special; it's comforting for many
---Some people NEED to have a symbol around which to rally; a flag, a shoulder patch, etc.
---Some people NEED to feel that they're making up for what could have been, but either (a) didn't happen, (b) couldn't happen, or (c) should've happened
---Some people NEED to feel motivations and rewards embodied through materialistic awards, such as pins and badges, hats and belts.

NONE OF THESE are bad, condescending, or the like......and this sort of thing is a continuum, upon which some folks lean more one way or the other vs. being extreme end or extreme opposite end.


Fact is fact – some folks have to find their true motivation in materialism, others' association, or  through the works of others in which they had no role, 60+ years ago(e.g., "tradition")

If all people didn't really care about what others thought of their contributions or inclusions (sort of like what most of us heard as lessons from our parents), if all people were more inspired by association through concept verses an object, if folks were pretty well at peace for having never become a military officer or leader of a charge over San Juan Hill, and if we weren't so materialistic in terms of measuring success with "stuff"......

......well, we'd probably not be having this conversation in the first place.

[Eclipse]

Which is why I said >an<, not >the<.

Ok, but that does not answer the question...
So 1% of the time we are 'AN" Aux of the Air Force... so what? Should we wear AF uniforms while on AFAMs? Is that what you are trying to say?

Who cares about the AUX ON/OFF thing?  Do cadets really care whether or not, at any specific time, that we're AFAUX or not?  I know I don't.  To me, it's only an ES thing that doesn't affect me or the program in any other way.  So far, I have felt no change down at the squadron level regarding the AF AUX ON/OFF thing having come about.

Correct, its a nuance of liability insurance and little else.

I would argue that the cadet program is 100% of the time a USAF auxiliary, and regardless all members should comport themselves as if the represent not only the USAF, but the USA as well.

The color of my shirt has no bearing to that.

And while everyone has their reasons and right to an opinion, I have absolutely no idea what motivates people to join a military auxiliary, and then proudly declare they would not be caught dead in a military uniform.

[Stonewall]

If CAP did not have a cadet program, I would not give a second thought about not wearing a uniform.  But then again, I wouldn't give a second thought about joining another group, be it a VFD, Volunteer SAR, Scouts, or whatever.  Just so happens, several of the types of organizations I'd be a part of have uniforms.  If I found an interest in something that didn't have a uniform associated with it, I'd do it. 

[LittleIronPilot]

CAP's use of the AF-style uniform is means to satisfy many people's psychological needs.  We tend to wrap those needs around concepts and ideas (sometimes to the best of our ability, sometimes not so much).

---Some people NEED to know that others SEE them as special; it's comforting for many
---Some people NEED to have a symbol around which to rally; a flag, a shoulder patch, etc.
---Some people NEED to feel that they're making up for what could have been, but either (a) didn't happen, (b) couldn't happen, or (c) should've happened
---Some people NEED to feel motivations and rewards embodied through materialistic awards, such as pins and badges, hats and belts.

NONE OF THESE are bad, condescending, or the like......and this sort of thing is a continuum, upon which some folks lean more one way or the other vs. being extreme end or extreme opposite end.


Fact is fact – some folks have to find their true motivation in materialism, others' association, or  through the works of others in which they had no role, 60+ years ago(e.g., "tradition")

If all people didn't really care about what others thought of their contributions or inclusions (sort of like what most of us heard as lessons from our parents), if all people were more inspired by association through concept verses an object, if folks were pretty well at peace for having never become a military officer or leader of a charge over San Juan Hill, and if we weren't so materialistic in terms of measuring success with "stuff"......

......well, we'd probably not be having this conversation in the first place.

Whooooaa....talk about condescending, no matter how you tried to explain that it is not.

So someone just doing something for no reason but to do it is somehow noble but no one else is? BTW...those associations ARE important. Even if it was just the CAP uniform, it would still be an association with THAT group.