Mess dress, flight suits, oh my.

[Lee Davis]

I've seen a lot of differing opinions about wearing various uniforms, but here's a question which recently came up:

If you're on a cruiseline vacation, and there's a "formal" night, can you wear your mess dress uniform?

Or should you just rent a tux and let your association with CAP be silent?

Not interested in what you wear under your flight suit, blues, or mess dress.  Not interested in seeing your rack. Just interested in your educated opinion on this topic.

My opinion: Not within regs...but it could be a good recruiting opportunity.  But what do I know?  That's why I'm asking. 

Thanks!

[CAPLAW]

Is it a CAP activity?

Are you wearing the AF style uniform on a ship that is a non-American flag bearing ?

Are you in a foreing port or waters?


wHAT REGS HAVE YOU BROKEN TODAY!

[dwb]

Hey look, it's my second chance in a week to use my new flow chart!



NOTE: John K. of MDWG came up with the flow, I just put it in a chart.

[Pylon]

Perhaps a better question is why not?  Sure, the regulations are fairly clear in my opinion... but the same type of question comes up in the "Flight Suit Duty Uniform"  -- why not?

The last cruise I was on, on formal night, I saw no less than 6 or 7 USAF mess dress uniforms (clearly the majority in the crowd), a Marine in dress blues, and an Army officer in dress blues.  (Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

So how's is it inappropriate, besides the fact that the way the reg is currently written?

[Stonewall]

While I absolutely love Dan's flow chart above, I will actually go with the opposite of what the chart says to do.

The reason why, is because if you consider CAP is similar in nature to the Real Military™, and in the Real Military™ you would absolutely find service men and women wearing their formal attire at a civilian hosted formal event, then why wouldn't you wear CAP?  Personally, I wouldn't, because I don't have CAP mess dress, nor do I have Air Force mess dress.  But if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to wear it.  Civilians wear civilian tuxedos, servicemen wear military tuxedos and civilian members of a military auxiliary wear CAP tuxedos. 

No biggie.  But I can totally understand why many people wouldn't do so, but for me it isn't a big issue.

[pixelwonk]

(Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

They don't want to be mistaken for the waiter. 

[JC004]

(Guess the Navy doesn't hang out on boats when they don't have to ).   

They don't want to be mistaken for the waiter. 

lmao   

[jimmydeanno]

While I absolutely love Dan's flow chart above, I will actually go with the opposite of what the chart says to do.

The reason why, is because if you consider CAP is similar in nature to the Real Military™, and in the Real Military™ you would absolutely find service men and women wearing their formal attire at a civilian hosted formal event, then why wouldn't you wear CAP?  Personally, I wouldn't, because I don't have CAP mess dress, nor do I have Air Force mess dress.  But if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to wear it.  Civilians wear civilian tuxedos, servicemen wear military tuxedos and civilian members of a military auxiliary wear CAP tuxedos. 

No biggie.  But I can totally understand why many people wouldn't do so, but for me it isn't a big issue.

However, in other situations, CAP says we can wear our uniform while DoD recommends they don't.  For instance, the wearing of service dress aboard commercial flights.  My wife has been told on many occasions not to do this, just wear civilian clothing, where it used to be customary.

[Stonewall]

However, in other situations, CAP says we can wear our uniform while DoD recommends they don't.  For instance, the wearing of service dress aboard commercial flights.  My wife has been told on many occasions not to do this, just wear civilian clothing, where it used to be customary.

Ever been to Lackland or an AF base where tons of airmen are graduating tech school?  It's like a sea of blue being sent off in all directions at the local airports.  While big bad DOD may not recommend folks travel in service dress, it's certainly not always practiced.  Not saying I'd wear my service dress on a plane, I stay out of service dress if at all possible.

But he's not asking about wearing service dress on a flight, he's asking about a formal dinner, where others have worn military mess dress and I happen to know of several that have done the same.  Not saying it's "right" in the grand scheme of things, but I do believe it is s a personal preference and not really a big deal at that.

[Sgt. Savage]

CAPP 151, Para 11. Sec. g. "If you wear your uniform to civilian social functions,
you must wear the service dress uniform, or mess dress
uniform, or uniform that parallels the civilian dress for the
occasion, that is, coat and tie. You may not wear fatigues or
flight suits to civilian functions."


There are provisions for wearing the uniform to civilian functions.

[ColonelJack]

I wear my mess dress in place of formal attire at some functions, and I'm retired.  (Maybe I shouldn't admit that, though.    )

I've also been seen (and photographed!  posted here!!) with mess dress jacket and kilt.  Regulation?  No.  Sharp-looking?  You betcha. 

What are they gonna do ... fire me?   

Jack

[RiverAux]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

[afgeo4]

Technically, according to the regs we can't wear the mess dress as wedding attire, but that is exactly what's supposed to be worn. Social events at political fund raisers, balls, government dinners... they're all non CAP activities, but all require mess dress garb.

[Dragoon]

I'd go with the flow chart.  If the event has some tie to CAP at all, a uniform might be appropriate.

Attending a state dinner as a rep of CAP? Wear it.

Attending a funeral of a CAP member?  Wear it

Attending a wedding of a CAP member who has requested uniforms be worn?  Wear it.

Wearing it to a non CAP member's wedding because you want to look cool?  No

Wear it to a political fund raiser?  Boy, sure hope not.  We're supposed to be neutral on such issues, I think.

[jimmydeanno]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

I agree.

[afgeo4]

I'd go with the flow chart.  If the event has some tie to CAP at all, a uniform might be appropriate.

Attending a state dinner as a rep of CAP? Wear it.

Attending a funeral of a CAP member?  Wear it

Attending a wedding of a CAP member who has requested uniforms be worn?  Wear it.

Wearing it to a non CAP member's wedding because you want to look cool?  No

Wear it to a political fund raiser?  Boy, sure hope not.  We're supposed to be neutral on such issues, I think.

I meant that as an invited guest/guest of honor.

[Sgt. Savage]

I would interpret that phrase from 151 to mean that when you are going to a civilian social function as part of a CAP duty or activity.  For example, if you are giving a speech about CAP to the local Kiwanis club breakfast, then you can wear the CAP uniform.  Or perhaps you, as the CAP Wing Commander, have been invited to an inaugural ball for your new governor, then you would wear your CAP uniform.  But, if you were going to either of these functions on your own and not related to any of your CAP duties, then you would be prohibited from wearing the CAP uniform. 

Same Paragraph, Section i dictates when YOU MAY NOT wear the uniform

"i. Civil Air Patrol members will not wear the uniform or
any part of the uniform:
(1) At a meeting or demonstration by, or sponsored by, an organization, association, movement, or group that:
(a) The Attorney General of the United States has designated as Totalitarian, Fascist, Communist, or subversive.
(b) Advocates or approves acts of force or violence to deny others their rights under the Constitution of the United States.
(c) Seeks to change the United States government by unconstitutional means.
(2) When participating in activities such as public
speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, or rallies; or in any public demonstration (including civil rights demonstrations) not approved by the Air Force. Wearing the uniform may imply sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.
(3) When furthering private employment or commercial interests, if official sponsorship might be inferred.
(4) When engaged in private employment.
(5) When it would discredit the Armed Forces.
(6) At any public meeting, demonstration, march, rally, or interview if the purpose may be to advocate, express, or approve opposition

It goes so far as to say you may not wear it to work but nothing about going to dinner.

[DrJbdm]

I'm thinking of wearing my mess dress uniform on my next cruise.  Almost did last time but my wife ordered me a tux on board. I saw many military officers and NCOs wearing mess dress. While I personally think it is fitting if the military does it, I have always wanted to know what others in CAP have thought of it.

How many of you have worn mess dress on the formal night of a cruise?

[Stonewall]

If I had Air Force mess dress, I'd wear that to a formal dinner on a cruies.  If I had CAP mess dress, I'd wear it.  I don't have either, but I do have a tux, so I'd wear that.

[LittleIronPilot]

I'm thinking of wearing my mess dress uniform on my next cruise.  Almost did last time but my wife ordered me a tux on board. I saw many military officers and NCOs wearing mess dress. While I personally think it is fitting if the military does it, I have always wanted to know what others in CAP have thought of it.

How many of you have worn mess dress on the formal night of a cruise?

Why not? That is what I am starting to wonder with so many internal to CAP that seem to think our "service" is somehow less because we do not carry a gun or fall under USMJ.

I HAVE done both of those above, and am rightfully proud of my military service. I do not see why I should not be as rightly proud of my volunteer service in an organization, that at least as for now, DOES fall under "Big Blue".  I spend my money to buy uniforms, I spend my free time to serve my community and my fellow pilots, I take time off of work to do these things....so why should I NOT wear the Mess Dress as my military, and Coastie counterparts do?

Why are some here just so negative to the CAP and its military heritage and ties?