Proposal 3: Uniform Issues

[RiverAux]

Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.

Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.

Hmm, we can't control our folks, so changing the uniform will make everything all better?

[floridacyclist]

Considering that the polo is an authorized uniform and you want to eliminate it in ALL circumstances, you seem to think so.

[RiverAux]

Getting rid of the polo shirt uniform has nothing to do with the people in CAP.  It just isn't an appropriate uniform for a military auxiliary in my opinion.

Your contention is that wearing civilian clothes will somehow compensate for sending the wrong CAP people to the EOC in the first place. 

[SARMedTech]

If the argument is that folks at EOC are going to either think CAP officers are cocky or incompetent, a polo shirt isnt going to fix that. Why dont we wear our service uniforms or field uniforms and worry as much about better training AND learning and higher skill and knowledge bases than we do about the stupid polo shirts. And for the CAP officers who can hold their own in an EOC environment because they know what they are doing, we shouldnt be thinking about dumbing down their appearance by sticking them in polo shirts so a few hyper-sensitive emergency or disaster management folks arent intimidated. In my experience, the people who are generally intimidated are those that dont know what they are doing. Lets represent ourselves as what we are which is a military auxiliary and save the polo shirts for barbecues and pool parties.

[ddelaney103]

In EOC's, golf shirts are useful, but not required.

The one place where you might need golf shirts is doing CD or other LE work.  Even military LE often have uniforms (or lack thereof) to work the LE arena.  Depending on the amount of LE work or low profile HLS missions, a golf shirt might be required.

[SARMedTech]

In EOC's, golf shirts are useful, but not required.

The one place where you might need golf shirts is doing CD or other LE work.  Even military LE often have uniforms (or lack thereof) to work the LE arena.  Depending on the amount of LE work or low profile HLS missions, a golf shirt might be required.

Would that be the golf shirt with the CAP logo emblazoned on the chest?

[mdickinson]

Regarding Maj Carales's idea of standardizing to one type of CAP distinctive uniform for each USAF: Yes.

But I have one amendment: the one distinctive uniform that is going to be standardized to should take gray shoulder marks on its epaulets - not the blue "wannabe-USAF" shoulder marks being used on the White/Blue uniform, and not the metal "wannabe-USAF" grade being used on the TPU.

Until last year we had the white-and-gray uniform. Its appearance was the same as the new white-and-blue uniform, with one major exception: it uses actual CAP shoulder marks (gray loops), not USAF ones (blue loops). But then we saw the introduction of these new alternative uniforms (which seem to be designed solely for the purpose of "getting to wear USAF grade") - but why would anyone introduce a uniform that does not use CAP shoulder marks?

If they want to change the pants from gray to blue that's fine, but there is no purpose served by the blue shoulder marks other than to make us look LESS uniform (and allow the wearer to wear "wannabe-USAF" marks).

In the same way, the TPU coat idea seems OK (except that it should be allowed for all those not meeting weight/grooming standards, not just some of them) but only if it is changed to be worn with gray CAP shoulder marks, not metal "wannabe-USAF" grade.

CAP already has uniform shoulder marks (gray loops) which can be worn on all senior member dress uniforms - why introduce two uniform variants that don't use them?

[jb512]

Considering that the polo is an authorized uniform and you want to eliminate it in ALL circumstances, you seem to think so.

I wouldn't eliminate it in all circumstances, only as an official duty uniform.  For casual wear in certain environments it may be appropriate, but not as a working uniform...  my two cents.

None of the arguments I've seen yet would suggest that it would be any better than the same slacks with a white shirt and/or blue slacks with the blue/white shirt.  The presentation of being "better than thou" lies with the individual, not the uniform.  If anything the white/blue shirt would present a more professional image than the polo as a first impression.

[AlphaSigOU]

What's even more interesting... the TPU service jacket's epaulets are fully functional, while the AF service dress jacket's are not, unless you do some careful surgery by adding a small velcro patch under the epaulet where the button is placed. Otherwise, you're relegated to using those fugly misshapen velcro-backed shoulder loop abortions. And currently, the AF service jacket is only available in shade 1620; MCSS used to stock the doubleknit 1625 jacket, but it went the way of the dinosaur. when it was retired in the last revision to AFI 36-2903. (Maybe they do, but I haven't been to an AF MCSS in years.)

Relax the grooming standard to allow neatly-trimmed beards with the TPU? All for it.

If they insist on keeping blue shoulder marks, then add CAP to them like in the olden days. That should be distinctive enough to keep the RealAirForce® from having kittens sideways and upside down.

[AlphaSigOU]

Maj. C: If you're gonna spec out a black silly-vilian tux for a CAP corporate mess dress equivalent, they should follow this spec:

Tux jacket: black with shawl (rounded) collar, not the notch (suit) collar. Black satin lapel facings. Standard length jacket, no tails. CAP bright finish service dress buttons on the jacket; cut off the faux sleeve buttons. Let's go back to the old tradition of allowing a white dinner jacket in the summer months (Jun-Sept), like the old black and white AF mess dress.

Tux trousers: standard tux trousers with satin trouser seam braid and provisions for black suspenders.

Tux shoes: Lace-up or slip-on patent leather or corfam shoes. Plain toe, no designs, buckles or straps. Formal dress patent leather pumps acceptable.

Tux shirt: plain, pleated standard collar - no wingtip collars. And no frilly, faggadocious 70s-style tux shirts!

Black cummerbund and bow tie
AF mother-of-pearl  or silver cufflinks and studs
Miniature medals and devices (both military and CAP - none of this schizophrenia over medals - if youse gots 'em, flaunt 'em!)

The mess dress 'dinner plate' badge: worn on the same approximate position as the mess dress jacket. However, if you wear the bullion dinner plate, you should match the devices on the left side in bullion.

[Major Carrales]

But I have one amendment: the one distinctive uniform that is going to be standardized to should take gray shoulder marks on its epaulets - not the blue "wannabe-USAF" shoulder marks being used on the White/Blue uniform, and not the metal "wannabe-USAF" grade being used on the TPU.

That's a reasonable concession to make...I have no problems with gray shoulder marks.

[Major Carrales]

Maj. C: If you're gonna spec out a black silly-vilian tux for a CAP corporate mess dress equivalent, they should follow this spec:

Tux jacket: black with shawl (rounded) collar, not the notch (suit) collar. Black satin lapel facings. Standard length jacket, no tails. CAP bright finish service dress buttons on the jacket; cut off the faux sleeve buttons. Let's go back to the old tradition of allowing a white dinner jacket in the summer months (Jun-Sept), like the old black and white AF mess dress.

Tux trousers: standard tux trousers with satin trouser seam braid and provisions for black suspenders.

Tux shoes: Lace-up or slip-on patent leather or corfam shoes. Plain toe, no designs, buckles or straps. Formal dress patent leather pumps acceptable.

Tux shirt: plain, pleated standard collar - no wingtip collars. And no frilly, faggadocious 70s-style tux shirts!

Black cummerbund and bow tie
AF mother-of-pearl  or silver cufflinks and studs
Miniature medals and devices (both military and CAP - none of this schizophrenia over medals - if youse gots 'em, flaunt 'em!)

The mess dress 'dinner plate' badge: worn on the same approximate position as the mess dress jacket. However, if you wear the bullion dinner plate, you should match the devices on the left side in bullion.

It's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.

[AlphaSigOU]

It's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.

Maj. C. ... you've got my creative juices flowing. I do own a black tux (de rigeur dress for certain Masonic and Eastern Star rituals and ceremonies). All I gotta get is mini medals, dinner plate and wings.

And another thing I forgot to mention: should we have the CAP-style mess dress shoulder boards or completely [censored] 'em altogether for a miniature (mid-size) grade insignia pin?

[jb512]

It's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.

Maj. C. ... you've got my creative juices flowing. I do own a black tux (de rigeur dress for certain Masonic and Eastern Star rituals and ceremonies). All I gotta get is mini medals, dinner plate and wings.

And another thing I forgot to mention: should we have the CAP-style mess dress shoulder boards or completely [censored] 'em altogether for a miniature (mid-size) grade insignia pin?

I came up with the solution in another thread...

We keep the same size and shape of our officer insignia, but have them made in a different color.  Nothing off-the-wall, but maybe blue like the FO insignia or such.  That way they are recognizable, but not traditional commissioned insignia.  Am I going crazy?

[BillB]

Not even going to touch that line

[AlphaSigOU]

I came up with the solution in another thread...

We keep the same size and shape of our officer insignia, but have them made in a different color.  Nothing off-the-wall, but maybe blue like the FO insignia or such.  That way they are recognizable, but not traditional commissioned insignia.  Am I going crazy?

Wouldn't quite work, though. I think the CAP mess dress boards are fine the way they are - they're distinctive enough to be different than the Air Force's and dark enough to probably work with a black tux.

[RogueLeader]

Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.

Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.

If I have a subordinate - pick any level- and he/she is acting appropriate, all I have to do is write an order forbidding him/her from working in the EOC.  If higher levels decide to countermand that by ordering that member there, then they assume the consequences of doing so.

My emphasis.

Why would there be a problem if he/she is acting appropriate?

Opps, meant to say "INappropriate"

[AlphaSigOU]

Opps, meant to say "INappropriate"

You'll live... after being virtually roasted over the coals by the esteemed CAPTalk assembly! 

[arajca]

It's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.

Maj. C. ... you've got my creative juices flowing. I do own a black tux (de rigeur dress for certain Masonic and Eastern Star rituals and ceremonies). All I gotta get is mini medals, dinner plate and wings.

And another thing I forgot to mention: should we have the CAP-style mess dress shoulder boards or completely [censored] 'em altogether for a miniature (mid-size) grade insignia pin?

I'd say dump the shoulder boards and grade insignia for the tux. Using only the badges and medals, members can rent a tux when needed and not spend another couple hundred bucks on yet another uniform. If you REALLY want to have grade insignia, use a mini pin.

[RiverAux]

Which of you guys is going to buy me a tux to wear to Wing Conference once a year?