Proposal 3: Uniform Issues

[RiverAux]

if the CAP folks are the only ones at the mission base in a military style uniform, a lot of people, outsiders mainly, will automatically assume they are in charge,

Not a problem --- everyone should be wearing badges or vests identifying their jobs. 

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If the people at the local EOC have somehow gotten a negative impression about CAP it almost certainly has nothing to do with the uniforms and is about 95% due to the CAP persons involved.  The wrong person will give the wrong impression no matter what they're wearing.  Send the right person to the EOC and they won't give a flip what that CAP person is wearing. 

[Major Carrales]

I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.

Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military."  Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.

[0]

I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.

Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military."  Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.

I personally resent that.  I myself am liberal and am opposed to the war and I'm I don't believe that all military is evil.  It's only a small percentage of the Liberal Left that feels that way and they just make their voices louder because they are so few. 

[Major Carrales]

To prove that I am no agendist and am capable of being objective...

I will make this amendment to my proposal...

TWO STYLES...

USAF STYLE
Formal Wear: MESS DRESS

Business Wear: SERVICE COAT COMBO

Semi Business Wear:  Long Sleeve Minimum Service Dress with tie and ribbons

Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve shirt with or without ribbons)

FIELD WEAR: BDUs (for Ground Team), Flight Suit (for Air Crews)

For Civilian Liaison: (NONE)

CAP STYLE
Formal Wear: Regular Black TUX with Mini-medals on the chest and Mess Dress tie and cummerbund

Business Wear: CAP SERVICE COAT COMBO

Semi Business Wear:  Long Sleeve CAP Distinctive (While Shirt, Blue pants et al) with tie and ribbons

Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve white shirt with or without ribbons)

FIELD WEAR: BBDUs (for Ground Team), CAP Blue Flight Suit (for Air Crews)

For Civilian Liaison: White or Light Blue Golf Shirt with Blue CAP/USAF style pants.



The "Civilian Liaison" uniform should be made to match the options of minimum service dress, this a white one (CAP STYLE) and a light blue one (same color as USAF Shirt)  There, that is one heck of a compromise.

The idea is that we have one set of trousers (USAF style blue) that is worn with a combination of shirts per occasion.  In theory, one would only need one pair of BLUE USAF style pants and one field uniform set of bottoms.  No greys.

This woudl present a solid unified uniform that could be layered.  Thus, a new CAP Officer buys the Golf Shirt and USAF PANTS/BELT...then can purchase a USAF style shirt (if able to wear it) or a CAP style shirt (if desires to wear it)  As time went on they coudl by the blue tie, Service coat et al.

[Major Carrales]

I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.

Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military."  Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.

I personally resent that.  I myself am liberal and am opposed to the war and I'm I don't believe that all military is evil.  It's only a small percentage of the Liberal Left that feels that way and they just make their voices louder because they are so few. 

Well, then I suggest that you encourge your brethren to "tone it down" or that you insure that "your" position is the dominant one.  It may be a small precentage, but the silent majority needs to speak up.

I cannot see any other reason, even after logical analysis, why people at an EOC would be "offended" by the use of CAP distinctive or USAF style clothing.  The only thing that makes since is that they harbor some "anti-military" thought.

Fact is, I am tired of people trying to down play the obvious military roots of CAP. I would like to see a CAP where we embrace that element instead of being "ashamed" of it.  A CAP where we present one image...the one based on the two uniform approach (1 USAF STYLE, 1 CAP STYLE).  It simplifies the "math" of uniforms issues.

[0]

I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.

Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military."  Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.

I personally resent that.  I myself am liberal and am opposed to the war and I'm I don't believe that all military is evil.  It's only a small percentage of the Liberal Left that feels that way and they just make their voices louder because they are so few. 

Well, then I suggest that you encourge your brethren to "tone it down" or that you insure that "your" position is the dominant one.

Ah, trying to change the process of others in the same general grouping as myself, does that mean that I am my brother's keeper?

To prove that I am no agendist and am capable of being objective...

I will make this amendment to my proposal...

TWO STYLES...

USAF STYLE
Formal Wear: MESS DRESS

Business Wear: SERVICE COAT COMBO

Semi Business Wear:  Long Sleeve Minimum Service Dress with tie and ribbons

Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve shirt with or without ribbons)

FIELD WEAR: BDUs (for Ground Team), Flight Suit (for Air Crews)

For Civilian Liaison: (NONE)

CAP STYLE
Formal Wear: Regular Black TUX with Mini-medals on the chest and Mess Dress tie and cummerbund

Business Wear: CAP SERVICE COAT COMBO

Semi Business Wear:  Long Sleeve CAP Distinctive (While Shirt, Blue pants et al) with tie and ribbons

Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve white shirt with or without ribbons)

FIELD WEAR: BBDUs (for Ground Team), CAP Blue Flight Suit (for Air Crews)

For Civilian Liaison: White or Light Blue Golf Shirt with Blue CAP/USAF style pants.



The "Civilian Liaison" uniform should be made to match the options of minimum service dress, this a white one (CAP STYLE) and a light blue one (same color as USAF Shirt)  There, that is one heck of a compromise.

The idea is that we have one set of trousers (USAF style blue) that is worn with a combination of shirts per occasion.  In theory, one would only need one pair of BLUE USAF style pants and one field uniform set of bottoms.  No greys.

This woudl present a solid unified uniform that could be layered.  Thus, a new CAP Officer buys the Golf Shirt and USAF PANTS/BELT...then can purchase a USAF style shirt (if able to wear it) or a CAP style shirt (if desires to wear it)  As time went on they coudl by the blue tie, Service coat et al.

The only issue I have is with the Black Tuxedo with mess dress accouterments on it.  I don't think it would look that good.  I personally with my tuxedo wear my CAP crest Lapel Pin.

[Major Carrales]

Ah, trying to change the process of others in the same general grouping as myself, does that mean that I am my brother's keeper?

If you are going to make statements that you are offended by an insult aimed at them, then yes, you are your brother's keeper.  But, let's call off the politics on this and focus on the issue at hand.  Our views on the WAR do not really enter into it and I will withdraw the observation if it returns us to the task at hand.

The only issue I have is with the Black Tuxedo with mess dress accouterments on it.  I don't think it would look that good.  I personally with my tuxedo wear my CAP crest Lapel Pin.

We could ditch the medals, but the Blue Tie and Accouterments promote more uniformity in an environment where the MESS DRESS and CAP TUX would be worn together.  The CAP Crest on the TUX would also foster a certain blending.  It would also mean that one would only ahve to buy these items and rent the tux.

[Al Sayre]

if the CAP folks are the only ones at the mission base in a military style uniform, a lot of people, outsiders mainly, will automatically assume they are in charge,

Not a problem --- everyone should be wearing badges or vests identifying their jobs. 

----
If the people at the local EOC have somehow gotten a negative impression about CAP it almost certainly has nothing to do with the uniforms and is about 95% due to the CAP persons involved.  The wrong person will give the wrong impression no matter what they're wearing.  Send the right person to the EOC and they won't give a flip what that CAP person is wearing. 

As has been said before, the uniform is a "costume".  If you are the new guy and show up at the EOC in a sharp proper (BDU or Service) uniform, it generally will get you some instant acceptance and people will assume you know what you are doing.  If you show up in a polo shirt, you may get the stink eye with people wondering "Who is this new guy?, Why is he here? and What can he do?  Like it or not, we represent the Air Force to most of the folks at the EOC no matter what we are wearing, so you might as well look and act the part.  The big caveat is that if you don't know what you are doing and cannot maintain a proper military bearing and perform the required tasks, then you have no business representing CAP at the EOC.

[Major Carrales]

As has been said before, the uniform is a "costume".  If you are the new guy and show up at the EOC in a sharp proper (BDU or Service) uniform, it generally will get you some instant acceptance and people will assume you know what you are doing.  If you show up in a polo shirt, you may get the stink eye with people wondering "Who is this new guy?, Why is he here? and What can he do?  Like it or not, we represent the Air Force to most of the folks at the EOC no matter what we are wearing, so you might as well look and act the part.  The big caveat is that if you don't know what you are doing and cannot maintain a proper military bearing and perform the required tasks, then you have no business representing CAP at the EOC.

Well said...

[ZigZag911]

Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military."  Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.

No, that's not it at all....it's long, difficult experience trying to repair relations with state police, county & local LE, other volunteer agencies (many of the leaders & members in these groups are themselves military veterans, remember) that were damaged by CAP ICs (or even Mission Coordinators....that's how far back some of this goes!) who thought they were part of the National Command Authority!

[Major Carrales]

Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military."  Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.

No, that's not it at all....it's long, difficult experience trying to repair relations with state police, county & local LE, other volunteer agencies (many of the leaders & members in these groups are themselves military veterans, remember) that were damaged by CAP ICs (or even Mission Coordinators....that's how far back some of this goes!) who thought they were part of the National Command Authority!

And so now we have to wear "golf shirts?"  I would, rather say that now is the time to repair those relationships.  We need to look like CAP and do our job while looking like CAP.  I will apologize to no one for being the USAF Auxiliary, mine is to do my job as a UDF, GT3 or MS/MO...an IC or any of the Mission Staff is to do their part.

If a CAP Officer goes their to "do their role" and accoplish their mission, then we will have no problem.  Let us not forget that we are at an EOC to privode CAP services to the greater effort.  COMMAND, as in Incident Commander, is over CAP resources.  When a FEMA Operative or other "more qualified" person arrives, the CAP IC is honor bound to step aside.  Failure to do so would display arrogance and unprofessional behavior...the scheisskopf in question is still such in minimum basic service dress or a golf shirt.

[ZigZag911]

I'm not saying we all MUST wear golf shirts.

I am saying that there are some places in the country where CAP officers are viewed as overbearing....largely because CAP officers in those locales behaved in a manner that was, in fact, overbearing!

For this reason I'd like to see the golf shirt option remain in place so wing commanders and their subordinate commanders, ICs, and ES/Ops leadership can determine what is best to use in their area.

We should absolutely be proud of our AF heritage and CAP identity...but we also gotta :work & play well with others"!

[RiverAux]

I am saying that there are some places in the country where CAP officers are viewed as overbearing....largely because CAP officers in those locales behaved in a manner that was, in fact, overbearing!

The solution isn't to change the uniform, it is to change the CAP officer. 

[ZigZag911]

First, it isn't changing CAP uniform, rather using an existing one.

Second, changing CAP officers is easier said than done!

[RogueLeader]

First, it isn't changing CAP uniform, rather using an existing one.

But the uniform is still not the issue.  The officer is the issue.  If the officer was in Full-Service Dress, or in Golf shirt- That was not the problem the problem was the officer acting in an improper manner.

Second, changing CAP officers is easier said than done!

"Stop acting in that manner, or you will never see the inside of an EOC ever again."

Changing his/her mannerisms are hard, but there are things that can be done to minimize their exposure to the outside.

[ZigZag911]

Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.

Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.

[RogueLeader]

Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.

Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.

If I have a subordinate - pick any level- and he/she is acting appropriate, all I have to do is write an order forbidding him/her from working in the EOC.  If higher levels decide to countermand that by ordering that member there, then they assume the consequences of doing so.

[ZigZag911]

And your authority, consequently, is undermined, making it more difficult to deal with the next problem child.

[SarDragon]

Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.

Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.

If I have a subordinate - pick any level- and he/she is acting appropriate, all I have to do is write an order forbidding him/her from working in the EOC.  If higher levels decide to countermand that by ordering that member there, then they assume the consequences of doing so.

My emphasis.

Why would there be a problem if he/she is acting appropriate?

[floridacyclist]

Because the people that are over a problem officer might not ever know what the  problem was....they simply don't get invited to play anymore. That's normally how issues are handled and it sucks, but everyone is so afraid of saying something negative about a person that they'll simply avoid that person or situations involving that person rather than report misbehavior to their chain.

I see this problem a lot with CAP and ham radio operators...folks know they've had problems, but they don't remember exactly who/what....they just don't want any part of it.