Proposal 3: Uniform Issues

[Hawk200]

Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years.  :-)

Come to think of it, in the last couple of years, both the Army and the Air Force have approved a casual uniform for recruiters and their assistants, consisting of a polo type shirt, and khakis.

I don't care for our extreme diversity of uniforms, but there is precedent for those casual types now.

Not exactly.  I haven't seen the Army "casual uniform" in AR 670-1 or any G1 guidance, so it's not an Army thing.  At best the recruiting command authorized a specific set of "civvies" for a very specific purpose.

In the same way, Florida Wing, if they truly saw the need, could authorize their EOC guy to wear any piece of civilian CAP gear from Vanguard to the EOC.

The day a soldier or airman can walk into clothing sales, pick up a golf shirt and wear it to work because he feels like it is the day we need such a uniform.  Until then, just order folks into CAP labled civvies for very specific purposes.  The rest of us can stay in service dress, flight gear or BDUs.  Or the corporate equivalent.

Look up messages. Not everything is in 670-1, 36-22903, or 39-1. You are well aware of that. And my post indicated that it was for recruiters and assistants. I didn't say it was for everyone.

[floridacyclist]

It's funny how we are more on the same page than we care to admit.

I would not want to wear civvies to an EOC event or class....the unofficial uniform there is an organizational polo shirt, and besides, contrary to a statement that was made in here earler, I am very proud of my CAP affiliation. I just don't think it's any more appropriate to wear  dress uniform into the EOC than it would be to wear any other button-up shirt. Not saying that nobody there ever does, but they too stick out (and are usually part of the Governor's entourage)

Bottom line is that by specifying which polo shirt to wear (and yes, I think we should ditch the plethora of styles and maybe go with one shirt with a nice-looking emblem), they avoid the trap of CAP members showing up in their "I DRANK 15 PINTS OF GUINESS AND SURVIVED" shirt they won at the bowling alley.

Now if they can just specify the exact conditions it should be worn under, I could die happy LOL

[Hawk200]

It's funny how we are more on the same page than we care to admit.

I would not want to wear civvies to an EOC event or class....the unofficial uniform there is an organizational polo shirt, and besides, contrary to a statement that was made in here earler, I am very proud of my CAP affiliation. I just don't think it's any more appropriate to wear  dress uniform into the EOC than it would be to wear any other button-up shirt. Not saying that nobody there ever does, but they too stick out (and are usually part of the Governor's entourage)

Bottom line is that by specifying which polo shirt to wear (and yes, I think we should ditch the plethora of styles and maybe go with one shirt with a nice-looking emblem), they avoid the trap of CAP members showing up in their "I DRANK 15 PINTS OF GUINESS AND SURVIVED" shirt they won at the bowling alley.

Now if they can just specify the exact conditions it should be worn under, I could die happy LOL

Yeah, a number of us seem to be. I think there might actually be a place for the polo, but I don't think we need three variations of one. And it wouldn't hurt to allow wear with khaki pants, that's the typical manner from what I've seen of the various organizations that do it.

[SARMedTech]

The only thing the polo/golf shirt is good for is washing your car. You see other agencies wearing polo shirts and chinos because that is their "corporate uniform." We also have a corporate uniform: its blue/blue or blue/white. Save the polos for when you go to non-uniformed squadron functions, like barbecues or summer parties. Even the Toys for Tots Marines here in my home town wear their dress blues or sometimes BDUs depending on the nature of the environment they are in.

[lordmonar]

The only thing the polo/golf shirt is good for is washing your car. You see other agencies wearing polo shirts and chinos because that is their "corporate uniform." We also have a corporate uniform: its blue/blue or blue/white. Save the polos for when you go to non-uniformed squadron functions, like barbecues or summer parties. Even the Toys for Tots Marines here in my home town wear their dress blues or sometimes BDUs depending on the nature of the environment they are in.

Apples and oranges.

[floridacyclist]

The only thing the polo/golf shirt is good for is washing your car. You see other agencies wearing polo shirts and chinos because that is their "corporate uniform." We also have a corporate uniform: its blue/blue or blue/white. Save the polos for when you go to non-uniformed squadron functions, like barbecues or summer parties. Even the Toys for Tots Marines here in my home town wear their dress blues or sometimes BDUs depending on the nature of the environment they are in.

No, the corporate uniform at a state office is a button-up shirt and tie. The polo is considered "business casual" which is usually the UOD in an operational office.

If we were running the show (like the Marines do with T4T) we too could specify the uniform. It's not a question of what we would like to wear, but what the folks running the show wear. Like I said earlier, if we were working with a uniformed organization, I would expect to see everyone in a real CAP uniform. Working with civillians is kind of the same thing...we pretty much wear what they have deemed appropriate to wear.

Incidentally, for squadron carwashes, we wear a squadron t-shirt and shorts or BDU bottoms. I guess you're going to say we should be in mess dress for that.

[davedove]

Incidentally, for squadron carwashes, we wear a squadron t-shirt and shorts or BDU bottoms. I guess you're going to say we should be in mess dress for that.

Only if it's a "formal" carwash.

[floridacyclist]

Don't laugh. I have seen an officer show up at a carwash in whites/greys. I will admit that I was surprised when he pretty much carried his share of the load. I don't think he actually expected to have to work beyond taking money or talking about CAP, but we were short on cadets.

At our last plane wash, I was still in polo and slacks as my wife and I had gone out the night before after work and hadn't made it home yet; I love it when the kids are gone - thank you CAP Summer Encampment and Hawk Mountain Before it was over, I ended up flat on my back in the mud scrubbing oil film off the belly of a taildragger Maule. I figured the clothes were washable and our attention to detail netted a $60 donation.

[RiverAux]

If we were running the show (like the Marines do with T4T) we too could specify the uniform. It's not a question of what we would like to wear, but what the folks running the show wear. Like I said earlier, if we were working with a uniformed organization, I would expect to see everyone in a real CAP uniform. Working with civillians is kind of the same thing...we pretty much wear what they have deemed appropriate to wear.

I would bet that no EOC has ever told CAP to come in a polo shirt uniform.  Just because everyone else is wearing them doesn't mean CAP has, or should, also.  Now, if for some reason they ask us not to wear a military-style uniform that can be taken into consideration. 

Lacking specific requirements from the "customer" it is really up to CAP as to the appopriate uniform.  Maybe sometimes it could be the polo uniform, but it sure wouldn't be my preference.

[floridacyclist]

Nobody ever said they asked anything, so no sense arguing about that. Just a matter of being smart enough to be able to figure out what the Romans are doing without being told.

[RiverAux]

And if the other folks in the EOC decided to jump off a cliff....

[ZigZag911]

If wearing a CAP golf shirt will get our folks regarded seriously in the state/county Docs, then that's what we should wear....we are there to make a contribution and help get a job done....whatever advances that (within reason) is worth trying.

[Major Carrales]

Nobody ever said they asked anything, so no sense arguing about that. Just a matter of being smart enough to be able to figure out what the Romans are doing without being told.

The ROMAN EMPIRE COLLAPSED...shall we take your analogy to its logical conclusions?

Simply put, we should look like CAP and asking Mission Base personnel to wear a button shirt instead of a golf shirt is not asking much.

[Major Carrales]

If wearing a CAP golf shirt will get our folks regarded seriously in the state/county Docs, then that's what we should wear....we are there to make a contribution and help get a job done....whatever advances that (within reason) is worth trying.

A specious argument...and moot as well.  If we show up and do a good job, no one is going to say... "look at that shirt."  But if they do see us and gauge our appearance, I want them to say..."look, there goes a CAP officer."

I still think we need to look like CAP Officers and CADETS and not members.  There is nothing "low key" or "STAND OUTISH" about wearing the CAP uniform.   It is the uniform of the organization.  For the RED CROSS it's those vests, for police and fire it is their uniform and from the FEMA types its a golf shirt.

I say, if its the CAP it should be minimum basic service dress short sleeve with epaulets and nametag for the MISSION BASE, BDUs for the GROUND TEAMs and Flight suits for the aviators.

[floridacyclist]

I still think we need to look like CAP Officers and CADETS and not members.  There is nothing "low key" or "STAND OUTISH" about wearing the CAP uniform.   It is the uniform of the organization.  For the RED CROSS it's those vests, for police and fire it is their uniform and from the FEMA types its a golf shirt.

Red Cross wears polos in the EOC as well, as do most LE/EMS etc. Folks high enough up the chain to be there have no need for uniforms.

And if the other folks in the EOC decided to jump off a cliff....

Not worth replying to.....they say there's no such thing as a dumb question....they're wrong

I say, if its the CAP it should be minimum basic service dress short sleeve with epaulets and nametag for the MISSION BASE, BDUs for the GROUND TEAMs and Flight suits for the aviators.

And I agree...at a CAP mission base IF you are your basic REMF. Other considerations may apply at someone else's ICP or facility. Actually, the only position I've heard service dress recommended for at a mission base is IO, otherwise, I think that wearing service dress would drive too many wedges between the command/general staff and the troops...BDUs for everyone except IO and aircrew.

The ROMAN EMPIRE COLLAPSED...shall we take your analogy to its logical conclusions?

I'd call that jumping to extremes (or whatever the term is in debate circles) since I know you're not dumb enough to believe that the saying of "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is literally referring to the Roman Empire.

I do agree...that there is nothing wrong with wearing the CAP uniform; the polo shirt is a CAP uniform, so I say wear it IN APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCES like when working under a civillian chain of command (whichever title number that is). You're right...they're not there to look at the shirt...but by being the only person in the room wearing epaulets and such, you are guaranteeing that they will pay attention to your shirt; and knowing that you are "just a volunteer" (I hate that phrase, but that is still how we are often seen, and not just by others) they will wonder A) Whose navy do you think you belong to? and B) What kind of team player tries to outdress everyone else?

I'm tired of this senseless argument. Those of you who do not work closely with civillians will never understand why we're seen as prima donnas and whackers by many of them because to you it is all about dressing up in your dress uniform with your epaulets, grade insignia and other Little Lord Fauntleroy trappings so that Everybody can see who you are. To us as a group, these things mean something, and I for one am rather proud of my ribbons, grade, and qualification badges that I have earned through my own hard work and motivation. Yet, to the average civillian, it is just a costume and many of them can never understand why we would have to wear something like that when we are civillians too.

The funny thing is that normally I am a staunch opponent of the polo shirt for normal day-to-day use; I think it makes folks look like they are too lazy to put on a proper uniform. Even so, I am not so rigid and inflexible as to believe that it is never appropriate to wear, which is precisely why several RealMilitary@ units have their own variants. Just like wearing a RealUniform@ sends a message to the RealMilitary@ that we are part of the same team and avoids having us stand out (if you don't think that's important, check out the photos of our chaplains who work with the Guard), dressing in a similar fashion to others in a civillian office sends the same message to the civillian emergency managers; like it or not, they are the ones who call the shots in a disaster and at other times control the purse strings along with who gets invited to play in the sandbox. Without that invitation, we are as useful in a disaster as mammary glands on a boar hog. Obviously the shirt is not the only factor in getting such an invitation, but how you dress and are perceived is still a part of the puzzle just like a ten of hearts  is a part of an ace-high flush.

Just like wearing civillian-style clothes can help a recruiter break down the barriers between him and the civillians that he hopes to entice into joining and affect his overall effectiveness, so can the proper choice of clothing when working in a civillian-controlled office setting. Wearing a formal uniform can often put a barrier between those who wear it and those who don't and that is not the goal of someone assigned as a liaison; as you get older and move higher up the ops chain, you will see what I mean.

Is it always appropriate to wear a polo when working with civillians? Probably not....but that is the difference between us; I am saying sometime, and you are saying never, which totally blows flexibility out the equation, and that in itself is a big no-no in almost any context.

Once upon a time, CAP's unofficial motto (and the motto that we have learned to run disaster response under) was "Semper Gumby"...I think that has been replaced by "Semper Rigor".

Put a fork in me in this thread, I'm done.

[isuhawkeye]

Iowa has an EOC staffed and maintained by the Office of Emergency Management, and a National guard "EOC" staffed, and managing Guard resources.  CAP is often the only agency traversing back and forth between the two offices. 

In the early days of our relationship I often wore a polo with appropriate slacks to the State EOC, while my counterpart wore BDU's or Zomm (depending on the EOC staff) bags to the National Guard side.

We fit in seamlessly into the different cultures.  (a plus to our schizophrenic nature). 

Now that we have built and established our presence BDU, or BBDU is the standard uniform for staff. 

[davedove]

I do agree...that there is nothing wrong with wearing the CAP uniform; the polo shirt is a CAP uniform, so I say wear it IN APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCES like when working under a civillian chain of command (whichever title number that is). You're right...they're not there to look at the shirt...but by being the only person in the room wearing epaulets and such, you are guaranteeing that they will pay attention to your shirt; and knowing that you are "just a volunteer" (I hate that phrase, but that is still how we are often seen, and not just by others) they will wonder A) Whose navy do you think you belong to? and B) What kind of team player tries to outdress everyone else?

Another factor to consider:  if the CAP folks are the only ones at the mission base in a military style uniform, a lot of people, outsiders mainly, will automatically assume they are in charge, and that may not be the case.  It's kind of like an office environment where only one person wears a jacket and tie; outsiders will assume he's the boss.  Now that's not so bad if the individual is actually in charge, or is someone like the IO, but anyone else could be spending more time redirecting outsiders than doing the job he is assigned.  Just a thought.

[SARMedTech]

CAP is (or was last time I checked) a paramilitary orgranization. Now if we are truly participating at EOC, there are going to be members of various fire departments there, likely officers, wearing LTs/Captains bars, police representatives wearing sergeants stripes and various collar brass...etc. Do you honestly believe that someone showing up wearing camo is automatically going to be assumed to be in charge?  Its not like we are wearing mirrored sun-glasses and wind breakers that say "Federal Marshall" or something like that. I dont know about you, but at an incident scene,disaster command center, etc I assume the guy in charge is the one wearing the IC vest. Kinda thought thats what those things were for. We recently had an "incident" at one of the federal housing complexes where I work with a private security contractor. The incident was big enough to bring out police, SWAT, fire, etc. We showed up in suburbans wearing blue BDUs and our standard "marine corps" 8 point covers (which we wear to be distinguished from Police SWAT) and no one, not a single soul was confused about who we were, why were were there, etc. When I show up on an incident, unless the person I see in BDUs is wearing 4 stars, he is actually the LAST person I think might be in charge

[davedove]

I wasn't thinking camo's or any other utility uniform.  To me those say "work uniform."  I was thinking more along the lines of everyone wearing polo type shirts at the base except for one or two folks wearing military style dress shirts with rank insignia.  Forgetting all your institutional knowledge and pretending to be an outsider (press, family members, etc.), what would be your initial impression about who's in charge?

Now granted, hopefully there are staff there who are on the ball and intercept any outsiders so this doesn't become an issue.

I'm on the side of the argument that while it is probably used too often, there is a place for the golf shirt uniform.

[ZigZag911]

A specious argument...and moot as well.  If we show up and do a good job, no one is going to say... "look at that shirt." 

I say, if its the CAP it should be minimum basic service
dress short sleeve with epaulets and nametag for the MISSION BASE, BDUs for the GROUND TEAMs and Flight suits for the aviators.

I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.

Having said that, a properly worn, professional looking flight suit or set of BDUs with minimal insignia (i.e., what's required, and aero or other ES rating badge) is surely the right approach if we use that style uniform in EOC duty.