New Uniforms, use Boy Scouts style

[flyerthom]

One more benefit, no Vanguard participation!

I bet those shorts would really look cool on some of the senior members!

The last time I wore shorts in public some people got upset because I kept getting up from the casket.

[SARPilotNY]

Just to set you at ease, the world is safe when I do CAP missions because I am off the clock when I go out from my other job.  And NO, I don't get paid... it's called vacation, comp or leave time.  Also, I was a cadet long ago earning my Earhart award.  Yes I do recall the Maroon shoulder boards and it was to make our uniform distinctive from the Air Force uniform.  I guess the issue with the "fashion show" is what is more important... having uniforms with merit badges to get respect or earning the reelect for which the ribbons were earned.  I have heard members say once I get my recruiter ribbon I will not recruit another member...and I will recruit a member at any cost.  When I joined CAP as a cadet, I was told I would fly airplanes, visit foreign countries and save lives.  Wrong reasons???  I have served as a director on wing staff and earn  several National recognition for our teams work in operations.  Wow...must be hard to believe!  When I wear my ribbons, I only wear my Earhart and lifesaving awards.  They are the ones that count the most.  Just so you don't ask, I could wear a whole bunch more fruit salad.

[SARMedTech]

Just to set you at ease, the world is safe when I do CAP missions because I am off the clock when I go out from my other job.  And NO, I don't get paid... it's called vacation, comp or leave time.  Also, I was a cadet long ago earning my Earhart award.  Yes I do recall the Maroon shoulder boards and it was to make our uniform distinctive from the Air Force uniform.  I guess the issue with the "fashion show" is what is more important... having uniforms with merit badges to get respect or earning the reelect for which the ribbons were earned.  I have heard members say once I get my recruiter ribbon I will not recruit another member...and I will recruit a member at any cost.  When I joined CAP as a cadet, I was told I would fly airplanes, visit foreign countries and save lives.  Wrong reasons???  I have served as a director on wing staff and earn  several National recognition for our teams work in operations.  Wow...must be hard to believe!  When I wear my ribbons, I only wear my Earhart and lifesaving awards.  They are the ones that count the most.  Just so you don't ask, I could wear a whole bunch more fruit salad.

Actually, the life saving ribbons have less value than the fabric they are made out of. If you are truly devoted to saving lives and you are not an adrenaline or glory hound, I challenge you to wear no ribbons at all. Ever. On any uniform. Wear your ground team badge and that is it. The only ribbon I wear is my CAP Membership ribbon.  I didnt have to put my life in danger to get it. Nor do I wear it as some sort of self serving badge of honor. I wear it because along with my EMT insignia is says that I belong to a very special group of people. We may not be PJs or Navy Seals, Army Rangers or Recon Marines. Our missions dont put use sitting behind the scope of a sniper's rifle. But the fine cadets and officers with whom I serve belong to the elite corps of men and women of all ages who have dedicated themselves to the service of their community, their country and their fellow citizens. We go when those citizens need help and we go when our country asks us to provide that help. We go in the middle of the night, in the rain and cold  and in the baking sun and stifling heat. We trek through the brush, across miles of open fields, through the mountains and wetlands in every single state in the country for one reason and one reason only: To Serve. The non-ES things we teach cadets teach them leadership and also how to follow leaders. How to take orders and how to give them. How to have confidence that you are the best you can be at what you have given up time and energy and money to train for and to know when to step aside and let someone else take control of a situation because it is their specialty. Though I have not yet had the honor in CAP, I have served as an IC and a ground SAR operator on more than 50 operations in my SAR career thus far and have worked with some of the finest EMS professionals to ever carry a litter, but I can honestly say without any hesitation that the men and women of CAP are without question the finest and most devoted group with which I have ever had the honor to be associated. It can be costly to be involved with CAP, in terms of time, money and just about everything else you care to think of. And though they may not carry a rifle or fly jet fighters, the men and women of CAP are among the best at what they do. I have worked SAR operations all over the United States and in Canada and Mexico and I know from first hand experience, that the SAR community at large considers CAP cadets and officers to be quiet, unpaid professionals who carry out their tasks with dignity and pride. So on this particular Independence Day, where we celebrate our freedom from tyranny and oppression, I say with pride that along with 65,000 of those quiet unpaid professionals, we stand shoulder to shoulder with the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard and USCG Auxiliary, ready to answer the call for help anywhere, any place and at any time. Though we are not solely an ES organization nor a group made up entirely of SAR operators, so much of what we do is done, like our brothers and sisters in the Armed Forces, so that others may live. We are doctors, EMTs, nurses, lawyers, engineers, bankers, retail workers and retired grandparents among so many others. We truly are a special force to be reckoned with and we are among the best in the world at what we do from training our young people to be the leaders of tomorrow, to utilizing our collective skills and knowledge to be the heros of today. For some reason, there are a few among us on this forum who have chosen to speak ill of CAP membership and its service. As for me, Im proud to serve in the Civil Air Patrol and will go anywhere to do anything when my country and my fellow citizens ask me to.

Bravo Zulu to the Officers and Cadets of the Civil Air Patrol....Bravo Zulu and Semper Vigilans!

[RogueLeader]

Hooah!!! and an Uh-RAH!!! to all.  To Serve so others may LIVE!!!  GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!

[SarDragon]

The great planet earth!  I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform.  As far as the 39-1, we could make it just a few pages with one utility uniform, dress uniform and flight/field uniform.  Since we are not the military, just a private corporation, we really don't need or need to be confused with the military or SWAT.  Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs?  The AF really doesn't want us to look like them, that is what they force us to look different, in fact we already do.  Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military.  If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.

RTFM. You answered a post not directed at you. Mr. Numbers was the directee of the Q about what planet.

[SarDragon]

I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards.  My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards.  If not...say bye bye.  I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us".  Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time.  Peer pressure?  If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran.  We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership.  Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards.  Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?

My oldest copy of the Uni reg goes back to Jan 1968, and there is no mention of weight standards. I joined in 1964, as a cadet, and we had our share of heavy folks even then.

[SARPilotNY]

I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards.  My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards.  If not...say bye bye.  I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us".  Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time.  Peer pressure?  If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran.  We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership.  Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards.  Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?

My oldest copy of the Uni reg goes back to Jan 1968, and there is no mention of weight standards. I joined in 1964, as a cadet, and we had our share of heavy folks even then.

I call BS...I don't think they had lycra back than.  When I was a cadet I thought everyone was old and fat...boy was I wrong.  I don't think we were as big back than.

[SARPilotNY]

Just to set you at ease, the world is safe when I do CAP missions because I am off the clock when I go out from my other job.  And NO, I don't get paid... it's called vacation, comp or leave time.  Also, I was a cadet long ago earning my Earhart award.  Yes I do recall the Maroon shoulder boards and it was to make our uniform distinctive from the Air Force uniform.  I guess the issue with the "fashion show" is what is more important... having uniforms with merit badges to get respect or earning the reelect for which the ribbons were earned.  I have heard members say once I get my recruiter ribbon I will not recruit another member...and I will recruit a member at any cost.  When I joined CAP as a cadet, I was told I would fly airplanes, visit foreign countries and save lives.  Wrong reasons???  I have served as a director on wing staff and earn  several National recognition for our teams work in operations.  Wow...must be hard to believe!  When I wear my ribbons, I only wear my Earhart and lifesaving awards.  They are the ones that count the most.  Just so you don't ask, I could wear a whole bunch more fruit salad.

Actually, the life saving ribbons have less value than the fabric they are made out of. If you are truly devoted to saving lives and you are not an adrenaline or glory hound, I challenge you to wear no ribbons at all. Ever. On any uniform. Wear your ground team badge and that is it. The only ribbon I wear is my CAP Membership ribbon.  I didn't have to put my life in danger to get it. Nor do I wear it as some sort of self serving badge of honor. I wear it because along with my EMT insignia is says that I belong to a very special group of people. We may not be PJs or Navy Seals, Army Rangers or Recon Marines. Our missions dont put use sitting behind the scope of a sniper's rifle. But the fine cadets and officers with whom I serve belong to the elite corps of men and women of all ages who have dedicated themselves to the service of their community, their country and their fellow citizens. We go when those citizens need help and we go when our country asks us to provide that help. We go in the middle of the night, in the rain and cold  and in the baking sun and stifling heat. We trek through the brush, across miles of open fields, through the mountains and wetlands in every single state in the country for one reason and one reason only: To Serve. The non-ES things we teach cadets teach them leadership and also how to follow leaders. How to take orders and how to give them. How to have confidence that you are the best you can be at what you have given up time and energy and money to train for and to know when to step aside and let someone else take control of a situation because it is their specialty. Though I have not yet had the honor in CAP, I have served as an IC and a ground SAR operator on more than 50 operations in my SAR career thus far and have worked with some of the finest EMS professionals to ever carry a litter, but I can honestly say without any hesitation that the men and women of CAP are without question the finest and most devoted group with which I have ever had the honor to be associated. It can be costly to be involved with CAP, in terms of time, money and just about everything else you care to think of. And though they may not carry a rifle or fly jet fighters, the men and women of CAP are among the best at what they do. I have worked SAR operations all over the United States and in Canada and Mexico and I know from first hand experience, that the SAR community at large considers CAP cadets and officers to be quiet, unpaid professionals who carry out their tasks with dignity and pride. So on this particular Independence Day, where we celebrate our freedom from tyranny and oppression, I say with pride that along with 65,000 of those quiet unpaid professionals, we stand shoulder to shoulder with the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard and USCG Auxiliary, ready to answer the call for help anywhere, any place and at any time. Though we are not solely an ES organization nor a group made up entirely of SAR operators, so much of what we do is done, like our brothers and sisters in the Armed Forces, so that others may live. We are doctors, EMTs, nurses, lawyers, engineers, bankers, retail workers and retired grandparents among so many others. We truly are a special force to be reckoned with and we are among the best in the world at what we do from training our young people to be the leaders of tomorrow, to utilizing our collective skills and knowledge to be the heros of today. For some reason, there are a few among us on this forum who have chosen to speak ill of CAP membership and its service. As for me, Im proud to serve in the Civil Air Patrol and will go anywhere to do anything when my country and my fellow citizens ask me to.

Bravo Zulu to the Officers and Cadets of the Civil Air Patrol....Bravo Zulu and Semper Vigilans!

Well I am glad that ribbons have a special meaning to you...that's a good thing.  I am sure you earned it and are proud of it.  Just for your info, the only time I wear my 2 ribbons is at the Wing conference when the CC requires it.
No ES, Comm, Wings or GT badges   ( we don't need no stinkin badges).  I am glad you have teams that respond to mission quickly and professionally...that is what I ask for too.  The problem again is that many of our wings and members don't respond quickly, maybe we don't have standards nationally but don't tell that to an attorney.  I am tired of members using the excuse "we are just volunteers" to expect piss poor performance.  Like my example earlier, people do die because we have failed to respond and will continue to do so if our leadership doesn't change it.  What this has to do with uniforms???  We wear an Air Force uniform...act like the AF.  If not, put on the scout uniform.

[Eagle400]

I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them.  That would be a great idea.  CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops. 

Exactly WHAT planet are you from??

Exactly WHAT made you ask, sir?

[Major Carrales]

I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them.  That would be a great idea.  CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops. 

Exactly WHAT planet are you from??

Exactly WHAT made you ask, sir?

Obviously not VULCAN!!!

[Pumbaa]

I think we also need to note that in New York, or at least my part, CAP is NOT called very often or at all.

I am in South Western NY, and I have noticed that CAP is not called.  We were not tasked last year during the major flooding in our area  to provide aerial support, or assistance on the ground after... We called all the way up to National and they would not task us.

Recently, we've had 3 missing people in the last couple of weeks. no call.. We had a plane go missing.. no call.. I am sure there are a lot more that I am unaware of too.  One of those missing people was less than 10 miles from where our plane is hangered.  I live less than a mile away with 2 additional pilots being 10 minutes away.  We were ready!  We had the news within 15 minutes.. no call!

I asked someone about it and this is what the problems is in at least our part of NY.. Can it be expanded to the whole state?  We train, we train, we are well trained.. yet no call.

A few reasons:

1. In NYS, all ground searches are conducted by DEC and overseen by the NYSP. (note the story said "wildland search teams have been called .....")

2. NYSP and DEC won't use CAP resources because they don't know or understand our training -- nor are they in the line for contacting the appropriate authorities to actually get us involved.

3. ALL mission requests have to go thru our National Operations Center (NOC) -- which in turn contacts the AF to request a mission authorization andfunding. Historically, the AF hasn't approved missing person searches forreimbursement. So unless the State were to pickup the tab (as a "C"-type mission), we won't get utilized.

4. Most of our membership (i.e. the cadets) won't be allowed on anything run by the NYSP. I've been told, in the past, that troopers are legally responsible for youth "under their guidance". And during a search such as this, the troopers don't want to have to watch our "kids" in addition to the search. (I don't know how true this is -- but I've had it told to me by
Troopers and their supervisors.)

5. Other than 1 or 2 seniors -- most of our members would be a liability in this sort of ground operation. We COULD provide air coverage -- but again #2 and #3 come into play. (It's all about liability coverage, who covers the costs, etc)

Again this seems to be the situation in my part of New York... noticing that SAR Pilot is 'NY'.  I would solicit his input if this is what he finds where he is?

Oh sure we get called for Air Shows, Parades, memorial Day flag setting, etc...  ANd yest even counter drug.. but I have yet to be called to fly a photo mission, a Search.. blah blah blah...

Why I said all this?  I have no idea as it is totally off topic.. I think...  7 pages and what do we have?

[LtCol White]

I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them.  That would be a great idea.  CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops. 

Exactly WHAT planet are you from??

Exactly WHAT made you ask, sir?

Because your posts are far detached from reality. You have very strong opinions and ideas about what CAP should do and how it should be run yet you aren't even a member, as many have pointed out already.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think we also need to note that in New York, or at least my part, CAP is NOT called very often or at all.

I am in South Western NY, and I have noticed that CAP is not called.  We were not tasked last year during the major flooding in our area  to provide aerial support, or assistance on the ground after... We called all the way up to National and they would not task us.

Recently, we've had 3 missing people in the last couple of weeks. no call.. We had a plane go missing.. no call.. I am sure there are a lot more that I am unaware of too.  One of those missing people was less than 10 miles from where our plane is hangered.  I live less than a mile away with 2 additional pilots being 10 minutes away.  We were ready!  We had the news within 15 minutes.. no call!

I asked someone about it and this is what the problems is in at least our part of NY.. Can it be expanded to the whole state?  We train, we train, we are well trained.. yet no call.

A few reasons:

1. In NYS, all ground searches are conducted by DEC and overseen by the NYSP. (note the story said "wildland search teams have been called .....")

2. NYSP and DEC won't use CAP resources because they don't know or understand our training -- nor are they in the line for contacting the appropriate authorities to actually get us involved.

3. ALL mission requests have to go thru our National Operations Center (NOC) -- which in turn contacts the AF to request a mission authorization andfunding. Historically, the AF hasn't approved missing person searches forreimbursement. So unless the State were to pickup the tab (as a "C"-type mission), we won't get utilized.

4. Most of our membership (i.e. the cadets) won't be allowed on anything run by the NYSP. I've been told, in the past, that troopers are legally responsible for youth "under their guidance". And during a search such as this, the troopers don't want to have to watch our "kids" in addition to the search. (I don't know how true this is -- but I've had it told to me by
Troopers and their supervisors.)

5. Other than 1 or 2 seniors -- most of our members would be a liability in this sort of ground operation. We COULD provide air coverage -- but again #2 and #3 come into play. (It's all about liability coverage, who covers the costs, etc)

Again this seems to be the situation in my part of New York... noticing that SAR Pilot is 'NY'.  I would solicit his input if this is what he finds where he is?

Oh sure we get called for Air Shows, Parades, memorial Day flag setting, etc...  ANd yest even counter drug.. but I have yet to be called to fly a photo mission, a Search.. blah blah blah...

Why I said all this?  I have no idea as it is totally off topic.. I think...  7 pages and what do we have?

Your wing king has an education mission, it would appear.

First... liability.  I am always amazed at the numbers of non-lawyers who claim that they can't do something because of "Liability."  "Liability" is bureaucrat-speak for "I'm too lazy to research anything, so I'm just going to make up some reason why this won't work."

Liability in CAP is covered in 2 ways.  Under federal mobilization (Title 10) we are an instrumentality of the United States.  We are covered under the Federal Tort Claims Act.  If we break something, Sam will fix it.  If we are called up under Title 36, funded by an entity other than the US Govt., then CAP has an insurance policy.

Cadets.  We have the same problem with FEMA, they will not allow volunteers under age 18 to participate in any missions.  I think this is BS, and working out an agreement with FEMA to permit cadets to work in support roles in disasters (Commo, flight line, etc.) is pretty high up on my "To-Do" list for when I'm the National Commander.  In the meantime, I think that MOU's with the state Adjutant General would be a more productive way to go.  When the NYSP asks for aviation support from the Guard, the Guard would call CAP.  (Unless helicopters were specifically needed.)  The Guard has some 17-year old troops, and FEMA doesn't whine about them!

In Oregon, there was this family of Asians, who got lost on a back-road network in rolling terrain.  The Sheiff coordinated the search, and ruled out using CAP because he decided that (in his non-pilot opinion) that the terrain was not good for fixed wing aircraft.  The family hired a private helicopter charter to fly them over the area, without success.  The tragic result was that the father went to get help after a couple of days, and died in the quest.  His family was finally found.

Somebody "Google-Earthed" the area.  The terrain was rolling hills, with a max. elevation of about 2000 feet MSL.  A lot of REAL pilots, including me, looked at that and saw no problem flying over that area.  We could have covered that area in a day.  The car was found where it had always been... right on the side of a road, clearly visible from the air.

Somebody needs to use that as a "Lesson Learned" when dealing with state and local governments and private SAR agencies, most of whom are staffed by people who have never flown in light aircraft.

CAP wrote the book on air seach techniques.  We need to shout that from the rooftops.  

[RiverAux]

While there are a few isolated local officials who "have it in" for CAP for various reasons, both good and bad, I am totally convinced that the major reason we don't get called on missions where we could actually be of service is that the local officials don't understand our capabilities and how to request us. 

[floridacyclist]

Our local SO SAR officer is very interested in our training and wants me to put on a presentation for the Sheriff himself. I don't think we're ready for that part, but soon....very soon.

[ZigZag911]

I realize the personal touch is important....but as a first step toward getting the word out about CAP, couldn't National be doing something to build relations with country-wide organizations of county sheriffs, police chiefs, the FBI police academy, state police superintendents -- all these folks have conferences, conventions, workshops....if someone senior briefed them (maybe a CAP officer & an AFRCC experienced USAF officer) it could lay foundations, open doors.....the wing commanders, government relations staffs and local ES folks would no longer have to start from "in 1941 Gill Robb Wilson..."

[JohnKachenmeister]

Our local SO SAR officer is very interested in our training and wants me to put on a presentation for the Sheriff himself. I don't think we're ready for that part, but soon....very soon.

The trouble is, with the Sheriff, you will have to spend most of the briefing telling him what we CAN'T do!

[SARPilotNY]

I have been to both coasts and been on both sides of the business.  What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post.  Image!  We need to change our image!  Uniforms again?  There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news.  The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent.  Could we have presented a better image?  The sheriff of Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe Apacho reads the same papers we do and what do you think he sees?  Those first impressions is what is imprinted in our minds.  Once there, hard to forget.  I lived in one county where CAP was the prime resource for missing aircraft (as it should be) and is the lead agency under a unified command.  That meant we controlled and directed  our resources as well as the county and state resources.  But it took a lot of hard work to get there and we had to dig ourselves out of a hole that we put ourselves into.  It took years of training together to earn their respect.  So much of that is image and uniformity! 

[LtCol White]

I have been to both coasts and been on both sides of the business.  What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post.  Image!  We need to change our image!  Uniforms again?  There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news.  The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent.  Could we have presented a better image?  The sheriff of Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe Apacho reads the same papers we do and what do you think he sees?  Those first impressions is what is imprinted in our minds.  Once there, hard to forget.  I lived in one county where CAP was the prime resource for missing aircraft (as it should be) and is the lead agency under a unified command.  That meant we controlled and directed  our resources as well as the county and state resources.  But it took a lot of hard work to get there and we had to dig ourselves out of a hole that we put ourselves into.  It took years of training together to earn their respect.  So much of that is image and uniformity! 

But you think that boy scout type uniforms would help this image?

[Hawk200]

I have been to both coasts and been on both sides of the business.  What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post.  Image!  We need to change our image!  Uniforms again?  There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news.  The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent.  Could we have presented a better image?  The sheriff of Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe Apacho reads the same papers we do and what do you think he sees?  Those first impressions is what is imprinted in our minds.  Once there, hard to forget.  I lived in one county where CAP was the prime resource for missing aircraft (as it should be) and is the lead agency under a unified command.  That meant we controlled and directed  our resources as well as the county and state resources.  But it took a lot of hard work to get there and we had to dig ourselves out of a hole that we put ourselves into.  It took years of training together to earn their respect.  So much of that is image and uniformity! 

So you would further confuse the issue by creating yet another set of uniforms? Using Boy Scout uniforms would impress upon the local poplulaces that we're the Boy Scouts, who don't do SAR in any way shape or form. They would never call us then.

I don't know why you want CAP to look like someone else. That is exactly what you want. If I wanted to do Boy Scout work, I'd join the Boy Scouts. But I don't.

This idea is completely ridiculous. You say that uniformity would be established by converting to someone elses uniform. It wouldn't be. You'd still have the old and the new and far more variations to keep up with. It wouldn't solve any problem, it would just exacerbate the present one.

And you can't roll out a new uniform, and tell everyone that they can't wear the old ones anymore. It doesn't work that way. If you think it could, you're deluded.

And a question: What makes you think that a different uniform would solve any problems of unprofessional appearance? It would be same old problems dressed up in new clothes. A drastic change in uniforms will not solve the problems you cite. You can argue, but it would be a lost cause before you start.