Objection, Your Honor!

[afgeo4]

Ok, so why is there no sweater/cardigan authorized? What are we supposed to wear when it's cold? Why is the only piece of outerwear authorized an Army officers lightweight jacket? What is one supposed to wear over the service coat in inclement weather? Why the Army lightweight jacket? Blue and black looks pretty bad. Even the tan navy/marine version would look better.

We need a pullover sweater authorized. We need someone to tell us why black lightweight jacket. We need an overcoat/all-weather coat. Also, what do CAP NCOs wear in TPU style? What about flight officers?

I think the issue is trying NOT to wear USAF stuff with the uniform (beyond the hat), while not inventing too many custom items.  Hence the Army windbreaker - it's not USAF, and it's commercially available.


While a sweater might be OK, many Army folks use the windbreaker indoors like a sweater.  In fact, the Pentagon we used to call the windbreaker "Pentagon Battle Dress" since durn near everyone wore it all day long.

For really cold days, the black leather jacket is authorized.  Works great if you just have the aviator shirt on.

But yeah, if you want something to wear over the blouse, you need some kind of long raincoat.

Outerwear has never been CAP's strength - probably comes from having a National HQ down south where it's warm....

1. From my service in the military... if you are indoors and plan to stay indoors, remove the outerwear (it's called that for a reason).
2. The leather jacket is far too expensive of a frill for most members.
3. If you're authorizing Army outerwear, just authorize all of it. Say you can wear the lightweight jacket, the all-weather coat, and the raincoat. All black, all officers. All worn the same way with metal grade insignia and CAP cutouts on epaulets. That's all. It's simple.

If it's true that NHQ doesn't think about their members' health and safety because they're in the south then I think they should all be fired.

[shorning]

1. From my service in the military... if you are indoors and plan to stay indoors, remove the outerwear (it's called that for a reason).

That's not in line with current AF guidance (as an example), let alone common practice. 

[afgeo4]

1. From my service in the military... if you are indoors and plan to stay indoors, remove the outerwear (it's called that for a reason).

That's not in line with current AF guidance (as an example), let alone common practice. 

Not sure what you use as "current AF guidance", but I used the MTI yelling that at every trainee in 1WOT at BMT (Lackland AFB). Oddly enough, it was exactly what other MTIs were yelling about at their respective trainees as well.

This and the custom of removing your headgear indoors come from the old-fashioned chivalry in practice in europe and the US up to the middle of 20th century. Gentlemen removed their headgear upon entering a building while everyone removed their outerwear to show that they respect you, their host, and will stay for dinner or meeting or whatever. Remember, military officers were always considered the benchmark of gentlemanship while military enlisted men were in those days often simple folk and were groomed by their senior enlisted and officers to become gentlemen.

[PHall]

1. From my service in the military... if you are indoors and plan to stay indoors, remove the outerwear (it's called that for a reason).

That's not in line with current AF guidance (as an example), let alone common practice. 

Not sure what you use as "current AF guidance", but I used the MTI yelling that at every trainee in 1WOT at BMT (Lackland AFB). Oddly enough, it was exactly what other MTIs were yelling about at their respective trainees as well.

This and the custom of removing your headgear indoors come from the old-fashioned chivalry in practice in europe and the US up to the middle of 20th century. Gentlemen removed their headgear upon entering a building while everyone removed their outerwear to show that they respect you, their host, and will stay for dinner or meeting or whatever. Remember, military officers were always considered the benchmark of gentlemanship while military enlisted men were in those days often simple folk and were groomed by their senior enlisted and officers to become gentlemen.

MSgt Horning is currently serving on Active Duty in the Air Force which probably makes him pretty well versed on what the "current AF guidance" is.

[Eagle400]

The sad thing is I know there are people out there who bought the TPU (the white shirt and pants part of it anyway) just so they could look more like Air Force officers.

The really sad thing is that the Air Force still won't allow CAP officers to wear blue nametags and shoulder marks with the Air Force uniform.   

The CAP corporate service dress uniform, although unnecessary, is an attempt by CAP to show the Air Force just how much the Air Force Auxiliary want's to look like its parent military service.  Every Air Force uniform item not authorized for wear on the Air Force uniform for CAP is authorized on the CAP corporate service dress uniform.   

Hell, Coast Guard Auxiliarists are allowed to wear Coast Guard uniforms with beards and while being overweight, but CAP can't be allowed to do the same with Air Force uniforms?  Come on!  Air Force uniforms are of the same prestige as Coast Guard uniforms, yet somehow the Air Force is reluctant to be as flexible as the Coast Guard when it comes to allowing overweight and bearded members of their auxiliary to wear their uniforms.

I used to think that the Air Force was just reluctant to allow CAP to look more like the Air Force and for CAP personnel to have more authority because of problems within CAP.  Now I think that the Air Force just downright hates its own auxiliary and wishes it were never created.  Maybe it's because of the present national commander, I don't know.  But something does not seem right about all this.  CAP has been given plenty of opportunities to prove itself, and it just seems like the Air Force is turning a blind eye to its own auxiliary. 

I think a lot of it has to do with CAP-USAF and its lack of oversight to CAP.  These are the folks who are the bridge between CAP and the Air Force, and I must say it is a pretty rickedy bridge.  I'm not going to speculate, but there is a lot of work to be done on both sides of the fence.     

 

[JohnKachenmeister]

The sad thing is I know there are people out there who bought the TPU (the white shirt and pants part of it anyway) just so they could look more like Air Force officers.

The really sad thing is that the Air Force still won't allow CAP officers to wear blue nametags and shoulder marks with the Air Force uniform.   

The CAP corporate service dress uniform, although unnecessary, is an attempt by CAP to show the Air Force just how much the Air Force Auxiliary want's to look like its parent military service.  Every Air Force uniform item not authorized for wear on the Air Force uniform for CAP is authorized on the CAP corporate service dress uniform.   

Hell, Coast Guard Auxiliarists are allowed to wear Coast Guard uniforms with beards and while being overweight, but CAP can't be allowed to do the same with Air Force uniforms?  Come on!  Air Force uniforms are of the same prestige as Coast Guard uniforms, yet somehow the Air Force is reluctant to be as flexible as the Coast Guard when it comes to allowing overweight and bearded members of their auxiliary to wear their uniforms.

I used to think that the Air Force was just reluctant to allow CAP to look more like the Air Force and for CAP personnel to have more authority because of problems within CAP.  Now I think that the Air Force just downright hates its own auxiliary and wishes it were never created.  Maybe it's because of the present national commander, I don't know.  But something does not seem right about all this.  CAP has been given plenty of opportunities to prove itself, and it just seems like the Air Force is turning a blind eye to its own auxiliary. 

I think a lot of it has to do with CAP-USAF and its lack of oversight to CAP.  These are the folks who are the bridge between CAP and the Air Force, and I must say it is a pretty rickedy bridge.  I'm not going to speculate, but there is a lot of work to be done on both sides of the fence.     

 

You couldn't be more wrong.

The Air Force does not "Hate" us, and they are happy to have us as mission partners.  Yes, they have had some problems with individuals, some with stars on their shoulders (Sometimes more stars than appropriate), but overall they know we are a great resource for lots of reasons.

Most AF guys don't even KNOW what our uniform is supposed to look like.  You might recall a post I made about being accused of wearing "Outdated" items on my flight suit.  Most AF guys simply assume that we wear the AF uniform with special insignia, and that our uniform changes when the Air Force changes theirs.

[ColonelJack]

And once again ... the Coast Guard Auxiliary does not wear the same uniform as the Coast Guard.  The buttons and braid on the CGAux uniform are silver, while those on the CG are gold.  The braid on the combination cap is also silver, right down to the scrambled eggs on the visor.  And therein lies the major gulf between CG and CGAux -- if CGAux had to wear gold instead of silver, there wouldn't be any overweight or bearded people in that uniform.

I know, it's a minor difference to us, but an obvious difference to anyone -- and everyone -- else. 

CAP's uniform, conversely, is identical to the Air Force uniform -- except that we wear gray epaulet sleeves instead of hard metal rank.  And that's the only visible difference until you get real up-close and personal ... and sometimes even then it's not that noticeably different.

Jack

[Eagle400]

No, that is incorrect.  The Coast Guard Auxiliary does wear the same basic uniforms as the Coast Guard.  The only difference is the use of silver instead of gold for braids, scrambled eggs, etc.  Like CAP, but more distinctive.  

Here's a modest proposal for CAP:

• Change the buttons on the AF service dress coat to distinctive CAP buttons (same ones as the ones on the CAP corporate service dress coat).
• Change the sleeve braid on the AF service dress coat/mess dress coat to gray.
• Keep the gray epaulets and nametags for wear on the AF blue service shirts.
• Remove the "U.S." cutouts from the AF service dress coat and replace them with "CAP" cutouts.
• Place a blue "A" on all metal CAP officer grade insignia, for wear on the epaulet sleeve of the AF blue service dress coat and on all appropriate outergarments.  For the blue windbreaker, wear "CAP" cutouts on the top of the epaulet sleeve above the grade insignia.
  
• Place a blue "A" on all embroidered CAP officer grade insignia
• Change the clouds and darts on the AF service cap to gray for CAP.
• Change the color of the leg stripe and shoulder boards on the CAP mess dress from blue to gray.

How about that?  It would make CAP more distinctive from the Air Force, just as the Coast Guard Auxiliary is from the Coast Guard.

[mikeylikey]

^^  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would rather spend NO MORE MONEY!  I can go to AAFES and get what I need off the rack for most things.  I can then "trade" with fellow members to get my distinctive insignia upon promotions.

[Eagle400]

^^  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I would rather spend NO MORE MONEY!  I can go to AAFES and get what I need off the rack for most things.  I can then "trade" with fellow members to get my distinctive insignia upon promotions.

Believe me, it would be expensive in the beginning, but way more cost-effective in the long run.  I'll even submit to you that it would probably be less expensive than the cost of the new CAP corporate service dress uniform. 

[mikeylikey]

If it is less expensive and allowed.......perhaps.

[MIKE]

The Bookstore used to sell CAP distinctive buttons for the old style service dress back in the day... They were like the AF buttons but with the CAP crest.  The even older tri-prop buttons were a bit more obvious.

I'm inclined to agree with Smitty     The Auxiliary uniforms seem a lot less distinctive then their CAP equivalent.  The distinctiveness is there... It's just less obvious.  If you squint just a little when looking at me in trops... particularly in my windbreaker... You'd  think I was an Ensign.

I wish CAP and the USAF could take a page from the SDFs and the like... particularly with the USAF style uniform.  Appropriately distinctive... but not glaringly obvious.

[mikeylikey]

^  Agreed!  Why can they do it......the American Cadet Aliance.....but not CAP.  Looking at an ACA Officer and an Active Duty Officer there is very little difference, just a tape that says "Army Cadets, Navy Cadets, Marince Cadets". 

[Hawk200]

• Change the buttons on the AF service dress coat to distinctive CAP buttons (same ones as the ones on the CAP corporate service dress coat).

Works for me. I changed the buttons on my service coats the last time I was in.

• Change the sleeve braid on the AF service dress coat/mess dress coat to gray.

Don't care for it. Second, you would need Air Force approval to do that, after all, it's an Air Force uniform. I don't think they would give it. Don't want to change my braid either.

• Keep the gray epaulets and nametags for wear on the AF blue service shirts.

I got no problem with it. I think it would be better to use the grey across the board. Even on the TPU "Lite".

• Remove the "U.S." cutouts from the AF service dress coat and replace them with "CAP" cutouts.

If this would give us standard hard metal rank, I wouldn't mind. It would be consistant between the two separate service coats.

• Place a blue "A" on all metal CAP officer grade insignia, for wear on the epaulet sleeve of the AF blue service dress coat and on all appropriate outergarments.

No real reason to do so. A nametag with "Civil Air Patrol" and "United States Air Force Auxiliary" on it points that out well enough. And the nametags are far larger than our AF counterparts, so they're pretty obvious.

Also, no need to commision new rank insignia. It's just not necessary. We can use existing insignia a lot more easily.

• For the blue windbreaker, wear "CAP" cutouts on the top of the epaulet sleeve above the grade insignia.

Works for me.

• Place a blue "A" on all embroidered CAP officer grade insignia

Same as above. Besides, we know we're "Auxiliary". And we do not work with the Air Force in the same manner as CG Auxiliarists work with the CG. No reason to emulate them.

• Change the clouds and darts on the AF service cap to gray for CAP.

As mentioned above, it's an Air Force uniform. Would require AF approval. There are existing service hats that work just fine for us, why make something new? I can buy a hat in an AF military clothing. I don't want to have to mail order it.

• Change the color of the leg stripe and shoulder boards on the CAP mess dress from blue to gray.

Air Force uniforms again. Besides, I think a grey stripe would look a bit garish. Our dark blue stripe on the Mess Dress jackets looks better anyway.

Besides, there is already a major difference between our jacket and the Air Force. The Air Force wears silver stripes on jackets and shoulder boards, ours is dark blue. It's pretty distinctive already. Gray may just look like a faded silver, you would end up defeating the purpose with such an arbitrary change.

[Eagle400]

I think it is time someone asked some pretty strong questions to Col Hodgkins as to why the Air Force is so against CAP officers wearing blue nametags and shoulder marks.  The members of CAP deserve to know! 

After all, if they can wear blue sleeve braids and the blue stripe on the mess dress pants, why can't they wear blue nametags and epaulets?   Doesn't make sense to me.   

[Hawk200]

After all, if they can wear blue sleeve braids and the blue stripe on the mess dress pants, why can't they wear blue nametags and epaulets?   Doesn't make sense to me.   

As I pointed out, the blue braid on the mess dress differs from the Air Force practice of wearing silver braid. The two are distinctly different.

There is no braid on the mess dress pants. None. It is not attached later for officers, that is a panel that is integral to the pants, they're manufactured that way. Air Force enlisted wear the same mess dress pants as the officers. And CAP members wear it too.

There is no mention of pants braid in either the AFI or CAPM 39-1.

[LtCol White]

As I posted on another thread, I think this would be the way to go for the service coat as well as the TPU coat. Also use the same blue eps on both combo shirts. You could drop the silver nametag in favor of the old type blue one on the coats and even drop US and put CAP on both. This would create greater similarity between the 2 combos so that it would be obvious that both were the same org.

[Hawk200]

You could drop the silver nametag in favor of the old type blue one on the coats and even drop US and put CAP on both. This would create greater similarity between the 2 combos so that it would be obvious that both were the same org.

I wouldn't drop the silver nametag on the coats. That old blue one looked tacky on that style of service dress. Presently, there are two variations on the silver nametag: One with just name, the other with name and "Civil Air Patrol". Just pick one.

Although, if you go with one having "Civil Air Patrol" on it, put it below the name. For some reason, above the name just looks wierd to me, like it's out of balance or something.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The gray sleeve braid MIGHT go over, IF you had a sewn-on gray epaulet with metal rank.

Somebody once sugested that CAP officers buy the AF enlisted uniform, along with a "CAP Officer Conversion Kit" consisting of gray sleeve braid and gray epaulets.

You would pin on your rank, and pin a "CAP" cutout halfway between the rank device and the button.

With "CAP" on the epaulet, the US could stay on the lapel.

[LtCol White]

You could drop the silver nametag in favor of the old type blue one on the coats and even drop US and put CAP on both. This would create greater similarity between the 2 combos so that it would be obvious that both were the same org.

I wouldn't drop the silver nametag on the coats. That old blue one looked tacky on that style of service dress. Presently, there are two variations on the silver nametag: One with just name, the other with name and "Civil Air Patrol". Just pick one.

Although, if you go with one having "Civil Air Patrol" on it, put it below the name. For some reason, above the name just looks wierd to me, like it's out of balance or something.

Again, just throwing out ideas to make it a little different without looking garish.