Objection, Your Honor!

[JarakMaldon]

Why do the blue epaulets need to have "CAP" embroidered on them?  Why give vanguard more money?  As it is now......we can order those from AAFES at a cheaper price and not pay huge shipping charges! 

What really is the reason?  Everyone says they would like to have them......why? 

We already have a nameplate that says "Civil Air Patrol".....and "CAP" cutouts and silver braid and no military ribbons!  I can tell the difference between a CAP Officer and an AF Officer.

The 2-line silver nametag, silver braid, different coat style, etc. are all well and good for the option of wearing the coat, but without a coat on, the distinction blurs.

A white shirt looks awfully close to a light blue shirt in the sunlight, and a blue 2-line nametag can escape ones attention.   To someone who doesn't know any better, Joe CAP Lt Col in his coatless TPU can easily be confused for a AF Lt Col in a coatless service uniform.

If we're talking about the white/blue uniforms, I still say that the AFI prohibits members of the Air Force from wearing it.

Concur.

[Dragoon]

Yeah, sticking with gray epaulets all around would make things easier.

1.  Easier to ID that we're not USAF.

2.  (More important) Easier to ID that we ARE CAP (the importance of branding, dontcha know)

3.  Less to buy, less to stock.  Less $$$ out of my pockets.

[ddelaney103]

As to the objections to the TPU based on 36-2903, I'm going to quote from AFI 10-2701, Organization and Function of the Civil Air Patrol

1.3. Status of CAP Personnel. CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces.  CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure.

1.3.2. Uniform Wear and Personal Appearance. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP or Air
Force-style uniforms in accordance with CAP regulations (civilian clothing may be worn when specific missions dictate). The Air Force controls the configuration of the Air Force-style uniform worn by CAP members.

1.3.3. Grooming Standards. CAP members that choose to wear the Air Force-style uniform must
maintain weight, appearance, and grooming standards comparable to the Air Force. Variations in these standards are subject to Air Force approval. CAP ensures that all members wearing Air
Force-style uniforms adhere to these standards. CAP senior members who do not meet these standards are restricted from wearing the Air Force-style uniform but are not barred from membership or active participation in CAP. In these circumstances the senior members may only wear authorized CAP uniforms, or civilian attire as appropriate.

1.3.4. CAP Distinctive Uniforms and Insignia. The emblems, insignia, and badges of the CAP Air
Force-style uniform will clearly identify an individual as a CAP member at a distance and in low-light conditions. The Air Force must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style uniform. CAP distinctive uniforms must be sufficiently different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

The two things I take out of this (bolded above) is the AF understands AD types are wearing CAP uniforms and the CAP distinctive has to be different from U.S. Armed Forces uniforms (which menas we can have beards and look like NOAA/PHS, but I digress...)

The AF took a chop on the TPU - we know this because they made changes (grade on cover and lapel brass).  Therefore, the AF considers the TPU and sub uniforms "OK."

Hopefully that will clear things up...

[shorning]

Therefore, the AF considers the TPU and sub uniforms "OK."

"We approve" and "we don't care" are two very separate statements. 

I don't expect that we'll agree on this issue.  While we have similar background, we're approaching this from differing perspectives.  In the end, it's just like everything else in life:  you've got to go with what your conscience will allow.

[ColonelJack]

"We approve" and "we don't care" are two very separate statements. 

No argument here.  But ... extrapolating from that point ... "we don't care" does mean "we do not disapprove," because the disapproval is not stated.  Therefore it can be reasonably argued that approval is implied.

I don't expect that we'll agree on this issue.  While we have similar background, we're approaching this from differing perspectives.  In the end, it's just like everything else in life:  you've got to go with what your conscience will allow.

Again, I agree.  I didn't start this thread to try to get everyone to agree.  I was most interested in the objections to the uniform.  I've learned a lot over these few days.

That being said, I still think the corporate dress blue uniform is a viable alternative for those who wish a military-style appearance but don't qualify for the USAF uniform.  Some wish to complain about having to buy CAP cutouts after buying US cutouts ... having to buy a new nameplate because someone wants "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" on it ... these are small potatoes.  They're not that expensive.  I will go out on a limb and say that the main problem with these is the inconvenience, not the expense -- twenty bucks fixes it, and that even includes shipping.  (Well, most of the shipping, anyway.)

I appreciate the input and hope it continues.  Thanks, friends!

Jack

[JohnKachenmeister]

"We approve" and "we don't care" are two very separate statements. 

No argument here.  But ... extrapolating from that point ... "we don't care" does mean "we do not disapprove," because the disapproval is not stated.  Therefore it can be reasonably argued that approval is implied.

I don't expect that we'll agree on this issue.  While we have similar background, we're approaching this from differing perspectives.  In the end, it's just like everything else in life:  you've got to go with what your conscience will allow.

Again, I agree.  I didn't start this thread to try to get everyone to agree.  I was most interested in the objections to the uniform.  I've learned a lot over these few days.

That being said, I still think the corporate dress blue uniform is a viable alternative for those who wish a military-style appearance but don't qualify for the USAF uniform.  Some wish to complain about having to buy CAP cutouts after buying US cutouts ... having to buy a new nameplate because someone wants "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" on it ... these are small potatoes.  They're not that expensive.  I will go out on a limb and say that the main problem with these is the inconvenience, not the expense -- twenty bucks fixes it, and that even includes shipping.  (Well, most of the shipping, anyway.)

I appreciate the input and hope it continues.  Thanks, friends!

Jack

Jack:

I pretty much agree with you, that the TPU is a good idea, basicly.  However, like much of what happens in CAP, the best of ideas is fouled up by poor execution.  The General's intent (If I may be so presumptuous to speculate) was to get all of the guys on the team into the same jersey, to the extent that the Air Force would allow.  But then we had to go and make a double-breasted atrocity with silver cuff braid. 

One of the guys on another thread came up with a great idea:  Have an AF-blue CAP uniform, with sewn-on gray epaulets and matching cuff braid, but use the 4-button and 4-pocket design that the Army uses and the Air Force used to use.

   

[Hawk200]

One of the guys on another thread came up with a great idea:  Have an AF-blue CAP uniform, with sewn-on gray epaulets and matching cuff braid, but use the 4-button and 4-pocket design that the Army uses and the Air Force used to use.  

It's a great idea, but I wouldn't jump on it too quick. It seems like some people higher up in the Air Force want to got back to that four pocket design(if it's made in polyester mix, I'm golden, still got my old one .) I always believed history repeated itself, I never thought I would see so many examples.

Then again, the Army just made the Dress Blue it's service uniform. Air Force may have to pick another color. But even with a lot of badges and such that the Air Force has, the uniform is still pretty plain compared to other services.

[JarakMaldon]

Then again, the Army just made the Dress Blue it's service uniform. Air Force may have to pick another color. But even with a lot of badges and such that the Air Force has, the uniform is still pretty plain compared to other services.

The new AF service coat, or the "Hap Arnold Heritage Coat," is intended to be good old Shade 1620, so we can all keep our pants on (literately).  The Army Dress Blue (or now, Army Service Uniform) coat is almost black, isn't it? I don't think there will be too much confusion between Army and AF, especially with the old-school shoulder strap rank the Army uses for officers.

Of course, the HA Coat isn't final yet.  I really don't see the belt lasting through the wear test phase.  If that is the case, they may as well call it the "we're going back to the coat we had before General McPeak came around" coat.

IMO, I think that if the AF went with the lapel style the Army currently uses, then allowed officers to wear the Prop and Wings with the US pins, Army branch style, it would be cool.  The AF makes it a big deal now that all officers from all commissioning sources are awarded the Prop and Wings as a milestone toward officership, but then they go away when you get your gold bars, never to be worn again.  Personally, I would like to keep them on.  After all, it is a heritage item.  The AF just went back to the enlisted circle-US, so why not?

Now, if they AF did that, then perhaps the CAP could wear the Tri-Prop in that place.

...way ahead of myself here? 

[Hawk200]

The Army Dress Blue (or now, Army Service Uniform) coat is almost black, isn't it? I don't think there will be too much confusion between Army and AF, especially with the old-school shoulder strap rank the Army uses for officers.

No, it's a dark blue alright, but nowhere near black.

Of course, the HA Coat isn't final yet.  I really don't see the belt lasting through the wear test phase.  If that is the case, they may as well call it the "we're going back to the coat we had before General McPeak came around" coat.

The coat looked OK, but there was a lot of negative reaction to it, especially some of the extensive tailoring that would be required. There may be a case of the old coat coming back. It will still be similar enough to the ASU that some people might get confused. Then again, there are people that don't know the difference between a deputy and a fireman either. Two uniforms of the same color may be interesting.

[BillB]

The CAP prop and wings lapel insignia was all silver. The USAAF/USAF prop and wings were silver prop, gold wings. I think Army aviation still wears the gold and silver prop and wings as their branch insignia.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The CAP prop and wings lapel insignia was all silver. The USAAF/USAF prop and wings were silver prop, gold wings. I think Army aviation still wears the gold and silver prop and wings as their branch insignia.

You are, as always, correct, Bill.

Plus the Army Aviation branch device uses the Army pilot/aircrew wing design.
 

[MIKE]

Off original topic:  I like the Class As better than the ASU... Preferably with the earlier khaki shirt instead of the mint green one.  Could go back to ODs but with matching trousers and black or brown tie...  Khaki shirts and trousers for summer Class B.

Always liked the self-belted service uniforms... like the AF test uniform for this reason, but it still needs work... I just don't like the ASU as a service uniform.  I would have basically just done the existing greens or the earlier ODs in black with matching trousers.  Probably would look like something worn by the SS, but I do not like the two-tone striped look for a service uniform.

Back on topic:  The corporate service dress however looks horrid... I thought it looked ok without the jacket, headgear and outerwear when it first came out though.  Except for the fact that it was basically the AF service uniform with a different shirt and nametag

[MIKE]

The CAP prop and wings lapel insignia was all silver. The USAAF/USAF prop and wings were silver prop, gold wings. I think Army aviation still wears the gold and silver prop and wings as their branch insignia.

You are, as always, correct, Bill.

Plus the Army Aviation branch device uses the Army pilot/aircrew wing design.

IIRC USAFA and AFROTC use both versions depending on wiether or not a relative served in the USAAF or not.

[JarakMaldon]

There is a slight difference between the Army and Air Force Prop and Wings.



US Army Aviation Branch Insignia.



AFROTC / USAFA / OTS Prop and Wings.

If you meet the following criteria, you can wear a version of this device that has a silver prop and gold wings.

10.4.1.3. Cadet officers are authorized to wear gold/silver combination "Prop & Wings" (gold wings and silver propeller) if a relative was a member of the Army Air Corps, if a parent has at least 20 years of military service, if a parent died in the line of duty, or if a parent participated in active combat as a member of any U.S. military service.

There also is an all-silver version of the Army Aviation Branch insignia.  These were accidentally given to some cadets back at my ROTC Det and replaced with the AF version later.

Two uniforms of the same color may be interesting.

How close are they, though?  The new HA coat is going to be the same shade of blue as the current AF SDU.  Here is a pic of an AF SDU, worn by a CAP Cadet, up against the coat that will be the ASU coat, worn by a USACC cadet:

Link.

[Hawk200]

Two uniforms of the same color may be interesting.

How close are they, though?  The new HA coat is going to be the same shade of blue as the current AF SDU.  Here is a pic of an AF SDU, worn by a CAP Cadet, up against the coat that will be the ASU coat, worn by a USACC cadet:

Link.

As I pointed out earlier, there are people that don't recognize the variations. It's easy for us, we're used to the minor details that differentiate the uniforms. The simple stuff for us can be pretty complex to the unititiated.

In that photo, there are people that would look at it, and think that the only one that is from a different service is the one in whites. They'd probably also think that the female is wearing the white topped cover just because she's a female(which I can understand, when I first joined the Air Force, females wore a white topped cover). It's crazy, but it is fact. There are people that don't know the differences.

[afgeo4]

Ok, so why is there no sweater/cardigan authorized? What are we supposed to wear when it's cold? Why is the only piece of outerwear authorized an Army officers lightweight jacket? What is one supposed to wear over the service coat in inclement weather? Why the Army lightweight jacket? Blue and black looks pretty bad. Even the tan navy/marine version would look better.

We need a pullover sweater authorized. We need someone to tell us why black lightweight jacket. We need an overcoat/all-weather coat. Also, what do CAP NCOs wear in TPU style? What about flight officers?

[Dragoon]

Ok, so why is there no sweater/cardigan authorized? What are we supposed to wear when it's cold? Why is the only piece of outerwear authorized an Army officers lightweight jacket? What is one supposed to wear over the service coat in inclement weather? Why the Army lightweight jacket? Blue and black looks pretty bad. Even the tan navy/marine version would look better.

We need a pullover sweater authorized. We need someone to tell us why black lightweight jacket. We need an overcoat/all-weather coat. Also, what do CAP NCOs wear in TPU style? What about flight officers?

I think the issue is trying NOT to wear USAF stuff with the uniform (beyond the hat), while not inventing too many custom items.  Hence the Army windbreaker - it's not USAF, and it's commercially available.


While a sweater might be OK, many Army folks use the windbreaker indoors like a sweater.  In fact, the Pentagon we used to call the windbreaker "Pentagon Battle Dress" since durn near everyone wore it all day long.

For really cold days, the black leather jacket is authorized.  Works great if you just have the aviator shirt on.

But yeah, if you want something to wear over the blouse, you need some kind of long raincoat.

Outerwear has never been CAP's strength - probably comes from having a National HQ down south where it's warm....

[mikeylikey]

^  I was under the impression that we can wear whatever outerwear we wanted with the TPU....as in raincoat/AF sweater etc.  Am I incorrect?

[MIKE]

You are incorrect.  Unlike the CAP distinctive uniforms, nowhere does it state that civilian outerwear is authorized for the Corporate Uniform combos.

[LtCol White]

Its a good start moving in the right direction for a non-usaf uniform option but the present iteration is tacky and cartoonish.