Beards?

[Dragoon]

I really like the idea of a single CAP, with a single set of standards and a single set of uniforms.

Or as close to that as we can get.  In other words, we may have to have two service dress uniforms, but making them as alike as possible makes sense.

This one's gonna sound harsh, and I apologize, but it seems to me we need to focus on the team and not the individual.  If someone refuses to do something as simple as shave for CAP, what else might they be unwilling to do?

It's kind of an old fashioned view, I know, but how's about we all give up a little individuality and focus on the team identity?  Work on simplifying and improving the CAP "Brand" by giving the public a single image of what a CAP officer is.

[davedove]

IMHO, that attitude belongs back in the 70s. The military folks don't get to wear beards because they interfere with how Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines can do their jobs. They can quickly become a safety hazard in any number of situations.   

I really doubt that's the case.  The only pragmatic reasons for being clean shaven are hygiene and getting a better seal on a mask, and perhaps in the case of HUGE beards, getting them caught in machinery.

Most folks in the military don't have a mask handy.  I didn't wear one in Iraq.  Unless you work with oxygen or expect a chemical attack, masks aren't an issue.

And military office workers here in the states don't have masks or hygiene issues - washing regularly isn't a problem.

In fact, many in the military (especially USAF types not in a combat zone) are exposed to an extremely similar environment as CAP members are.  Some time outdoors, some time inside.  Some machines (airplanes and vehicles), but no need for masks.

If the  reason the U.S. military didn't have beards was  job performance...then many many in the military would be allowed beards.

And, there wouldn't be medical waivers that allow beards - which there are.

Nope, it's about appearance.  For better or worse, there's a view of what a modern military man looks looks like - and he ain't fuzzy.  And that's today - not back in the 70s.

There's a bit of a fallacy to that argument.  Granted, most of the folks in the military don't have to deal with the protective masks everyday.  However, any particular day they may have to, so they are required to be clean shaven.  "Needs of the service" and all that.

I'm not going to discuss the waivers.  When I was in the Army, some men did have a waiver, but even those who did had to keep the whiskers real short, not neatly trimmed, but barely there.

In CAP there are no instances where we will need the protective masks, or any similar equipment.  Our mission simply doesn't require it.

I understand the arguments about uniformity, but that can be taken to extremes.  Some people are blond and some brunette.  Should we make one group color their hair to match the others.  What about the bald guys?  Maybe everyone should shave their heads so we all look alike.  These are things everyone can easily do to maintain a uniform appearance, but even the military doesn't go this far.

If there was an operational requirement for members to be clean shaven, then I'm all for it.  But why should we impose the requirement otherwise.

I still say a fit man with a neatly trimmed beard looks more professional than someone who is drastically overweight.  CAP allows both in their ranks, as they can all contribute.

[Chaplaindon]

If I am wrong TODAY, please correct me, however, as recently as 2002, the uniformed United Stated Public Health Service (HHS) has allowed its personnel to wear USN-like military-esque uniforms with a neatly trimmed beard.

Surgeon Generals (Admirals?) C. Everett Koop and David Satcher for example (see: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/history/sglist.htm) seem quite professional-looking with theirs.

The Uniformed part of NOAA may allow this as well.

I, for one, (although clean-shaven, by personal choice) see no contraindication for beards in military uniforms whatsoever, especially with the Corporate Service Uniform, BBDU, BUU, Blue Flight Suit.

The USAF may not like it, but, when it's our CORPORATE duds not up to them, it's not their uniform. Well they might refuse to salute us even more ... zero minus ...

[dwb]

This one's gonna sound harsh, and I apologize, but it seems to me we need to focus on the team and not the individual.  If someone refuses to do something as simple as shave for CAP, what else might they be unwilling to do?

I've worked with a lot of people in CAP, and I can tell you that the vast majority of them took their commitment to CAP very seriously.  Long-time volunteers have spent countless hours, dollars, and brain cycles for the good of the organization.

Some of those people are overweight.

Some have beards.

Some look like they belong on the front page of the Air Force Times.

Frankly, the "one image" thing is a specious argument.  Sounds good on the surface, but when you start to look at the people you're going to exclude, it maybe doesn't sound so great.

A sharp uniform is a sharp uniform.  I happen to think the corporate uniforms we have today provide a professional alternative to the military uniforms, and for the variety of missions CAP has, we need the variety of people we've got.  If that means making some concessions and not looking as much like our parent service, then so be it.

I've stated my case numerous times, and you yours, and I don't think we're going to be able to bridge the fundamental gap we've got going on here.

[Dragoon]

There's a bit of a fallacy to that argument.  Granted, most of the folks in the military don't have to deal with the protective masks everyday.  However, any particular day they may have to, so they are required to be clean shaven.  "Needs of the service" and all that.

You're in Frederick MD, right?  Go over to Ft. Dietrich and look around - which soldiers on that base have any chance of using a protective mask that day?

Zero.  In fact, I'd bet the vast majority aren't even ISSUED masks.

Same for most folks in the military outside of an NBC threat area - no mask and no need for one.

I understand the arguments about uniformity, but that can be taken to extremes.  Some people are blond and some brunette.  Should we make one group color their hair to match the others.  What about the bald guys?  Maybe everyone should shave their heads so we all look alike.  These are things everyone can easily do to maintain a uniform appearance, but even the military doesn't go this far.

Right.  Those things would be unreasonable.  Too hard to change.  Much like weight for CAP.  But shaving takes 5 minutes a day (after you hack the beard off).  Not hard to do. 

If there was an operational requirement for members to be clean shaven, then I'm all for it.  But why should we impose the requirement otherwise.

Based on that, there should be no need to wear uniforms at all.  There is no operational requirement for them. A baseball cap would do just fine.

I still say a fit man with a neatly trimmed beard looks more professional than someone who is drastically overweight.  CAP allows both in their ranks, as they can all contribute.

Actually, I agree.  USAF doesn't.  If you're fat, they give you time to fix it.  If you have a beard without a waiver, you're disobeying orders and get a rather quick ticket to civilian-ville.

If we were designing from scratch, we could ditch the Air Force duds and everything that goes with them, therefore allowing for a uniform and professional appearance by all our members.  Since hell ain't planning on freezing over any time soon, the other approach to improve the corporate brand is to mimic, as closely as practical, USAF uniform and grooming standards for all members.

[Dragoon]

If I am wrong TODAY, please correct me, however, as recently as 2002, the uniformed United Stated Public Health Service (HHS) has allowed its personnel to wear USN-like military-esque uniforms with a neatly trimmed beard.

Surgeon Generals (Admirals?) C. Everett Koop and David Satcher for example (see: http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/history/sglist.htm) seem quite professional-looking with theirs.

The Uniformed part of NOAA may allow this as well.

I, for one, (although clean-shaven, by personal choice) see no contraindication for beards in military uniforms whatsoever, especially with the Corporate Service Uniform, BBDU, BUU, Blue Flight Suit.

The USAF may not like it, but, when it's our CORPORATE duds not up to them, it's not their uniform. Well they might refuse to salute us even more ... zero minus ...

Nope you're not wrong at all.  And if we where the USPHS auxiliary, we'd allow beards and put our folks in Navy Blues.

But as long as we've got the USAF affiliation, it seems to make sense to get our appearance guidance from them - not some other agency that we have no connection to.

[Dragoon]

This one's gonna sound harsh, and I apologize, but it seems to me we need to focus on the team and not the individual.  If someone refuses to do something as simple as shave for CAP, what else might they be unwilling to do?

I've worked with a lot of people in CAP, and I can tell you that the vast majority of them took their commitment to CAP very seriously.  Long-time volunteers have spent countless hours, dollars, and brain cycles for the good of the organization.

Some of those people are overweight.

Some have beards.

Some look like they belong on the front page of the Air Force Times.

Frankly, the "one image" thing is a specious argument.  Sounds good on the surface, but when you start to look at the people you're going to exclude, it maybe doesn't sound so great.

A sharp uniform is a sharp uniform.  I happen to think the corporate uniforms we have today provide a professional alternative to the military uniforms, and for the variety of missions CAP has, we need the variety of people we've got.  If that means making some concessions and not looking as much like our parent service, then so be it.

I've stated my case numerous times, and you yours, and I don't think we're going to be able to bridge the fundamental gap we've got going on here.

Yeah, we're definitely on opposite sides of a fence.  The value of the conformity to the group over individual expression, I'd wager.

I would disagree that the vast majority of CAP members take their commitment seriously.  In fact, I'd wager that over half of our seniors don't do anything but pay dues.  And then there is the "I'm just here to put hours on the plane" or "I'm just here because my kid is a cadet" contingent.

In fact, I'd wager that it's less than 20% of our seniors doing the heavy lifting, and making the long term commitment.

Out of that fraction of our population:

Many are overweight.  Makes sense, as most of America is overweight, plus our folks tend to be older than the average airman. 

A few have beards.  I'm guessing less than one in 10.  And some percentage of that bunch would not quit if forced to shave. 

I'd agree we are on different ground - I've got too many years in too many leadership positions to be particularly sensitive to the "I'll do it my way or I'll quit"  or the "Appearance doesn't matter as long as you can do the job."  In my experience, both of those trains of thought lead to trouble later.

You don't exclude anyone by setting high, but achievable standards.  5 minutes with a razor is definitely achievable.

I think a single, uniform appearance fosters a "one team" mentality, presents a more professional image of the organization to the public, and simplifies the rules the members must follow.  And emulating, as closely as possible, the USAF model keeps us closer to our heritage and the folks paying the bills.  All worthy goals.

[Hawk200]

Wrong, they DO.  whether it is a meeting, flying, encampment, etc. Uniforms will be worn IAW 39-1, Table 1-1.

Ah, I stand corrected.  Previous versions of the uniform manual didn't include such strong language regarding uniform wear.

The previous versions of 39-1 actually stated that a uniform wasn't mandatory unless conducting the cadet program, flying, driving vehicles (I think), and a few other conditions.

That statement was removed from the current 39-1. Which means it is now a requirement. I knew of a few units where the members didn't wear uniforms at all, unless they were flying, which means most of them only owned a flightsuit. I'm curious if the the ommitted statement has even been noticed by some of those units.

[MIKE]

How many members do you think have actaully read or are current on a CAPR or CAPM?

[Chaplaindon]

"Nope you're not wrong at all.  And if we where the USPHS auxiliary, we'd allow beards and put our folks in Navy Blues.

But as long as we've got the USAF affiliation, it seems to make sense to get our appearance guidance from them - not some other agency that we have no connection to."

That would be true and show consistent logic, save for the fact that our CORPORATE uniforms bear little resemblance to those of the USAF (undoubtedly on purpose).

Hence my repeated assertion that IF:

   --- Our Corporate uniforms are NOT USAF uniforms nor under their aegis ... and ...
   --- If other uniformed federal services can wear trimmed beards and still look professional and, dare I say, MILITARY, while wearing a military uniform ... and ...
   --- If until the 1980's the USN could wear neatly trimmed beards and the solidarity of our armed forces didn't evaporate ... and ...
   ---Since we do NOT get our CORPORATE UNIFORM "appearance guidance" from the USAF but from our NB and NEC ... then ...

IMHO CAP should reconsider allowing neatly trimmed beards (they already allow trimmed mustaches) with the COPORATE uniforms.

I, frankly, don't care if we have an occasional/inconsistent (e.g. "AUX ON/AUX OFF") "USAF affiliation" it isn't their uniform.

IF everyone in CAP wore the USAF uniform (e.g. like the CGAUX) and/or IF we were ALWAYS the USAF Auxiliary then you'd be right it WOULD, "make sense to get our appearance guidance from them." As it is I hope MG Pineda makes this the next uniform change in CORORATE kit.

[Dragoon]

"Nope you're not wrong at all.  And if we where the USPHS auxiliary, we'd allow beards and put our folks in Navy Blues.

But as long as we've got the USAF affiliation, it seems to make sense to get our appearance guidance from them - not some other agency that we have no connection to."

That would be true and show consistent logic, save for the fact that our CORPORATE uniforms bear little resemblance to those of the USAF (undoubtedly on purpose).

Hence my repeated assertion that IF:

   --- Our Corporate uniforms are NOT USAF uniforms nor under their aegis ... and ...
   --- If other uniformed federal services can wear trimmed beards and still look professional and, dare I say, MILITARY, while wearing a military uniform ... and ...
   --- If until the 1980's the USN could wear neatly trimmed beards and the solidarity of our armed forces didn't evaporate ... and ...
   ---Since we do NOT get our CORPORATE UNIFORM "appearance guidance" from the USAF but from our NB and NEC ... then ...

IMHO CAP should reconsider allowing neatly trimmed beards (they already allow trimmed mustaches) with the COPORATE uniforms.

I, frankly, don't care if we have an occasional/inconsistent (e.g. "AUX ON/AUX OFF") "USAF affiliation" it isn't their uniform.

IF everyone in CAP wore the USAF uniform (e.g. like the CGAUX) and/or IF we were ALWAYS the USAF Auxiliary then you'd be right it WOULD, "make sense to get our appearance guidance from them." As it is I hope MG Pineda makes this the next uniform change in CORORATE kit.

An understandable position, but I believe  we're much closer tied to USAF than you think.


1.  They provide a large amount of money in the USAF budget.  USPHS doesn't do this.

2.  They provide the oversight.  They inspect us.  USPHS doesn't

3.  They let our cadets wear their uniform, and even provide some of them.  Not USPHS

4.  They provide paid personnel to support us in the form of the Liaison Regions.  USPHS doesn't.

5.  They make up a full one third of our Board of Governers.  Plus, they have half the say in choosing another third of that body.  No other military entity has a single vote!

6.  They represent our heritage for well over 50 years.  Our heirarchy, rank titles, customs and courtesies, all come from USAF.   


So yeah, we aren't IN the Air Force.  But we are a lot more connected to them than any other federal organization.  Not something to be discounted. 

Also, there's the matter of public expectation - ask the average joe off the street if military people can wear beards.  He'll say no. 

I too would prefer everyone wear the Air Force uniform regardless of weight.  If that's not allowed, then personally I'd rather NOBODY wear it.  But since that ain't gonna happen either, I think the best compromise is to get everyone looking as close to the Air Force as they'll let us get.

[Hawk200]

How many members do you think have actaully read or are current on a CAPR or CAPM?

Wouldn't even want to hazard a guess. I download all the pubs once a month and dump them on the computers we have at the squadron. When someone has a question, I show them where to find it. A lot of our unit members are becoming a little more familiar with them.

[SarDragon]

Right.  Those things would be unreasonable.  Too hard to change.  Much like weight for CAP.  But shaving takes 5 minutes a day (after you hack the beard off).  Not hard to do.

Maybe not hard for you. Different stroke for different folks. I have a tough beard and tender skin. No barber that has ever shaved my face would ever do it again. Most change razors at the midway point. When I was shaving my whole face on a regular basis, my face would constantly hurt and look raw. I avoided shaving on the weekends to attempt some degree of recovery, but it was never enough. Ususlly, I cheated and skipped a day in the middle of the week, and because of the red beard and red, irritated skin, it wasn't noticeable.

On a lark, about eight years ago, I shaved it all off, moustache and beard. It lasted for a week. My sweetie didn't like it that way, and most of my friends agreed that I looked better with than without. So now it remains as a long-term fixture. Beard vs. CAP? CAP's loss, not mine.

[Dragoon]

Right.  Those things would be unreasonable.  Too hard to change.  Much like weight for CAP.  But shaving takes 5 minutes a day (after you hack the beard off).  Not hard to do.

Maybe not hard for you. Different stroke for different folks. I have a tough beard and tender skin. No barber that has ever shaved my face would ever do it again. Most change razors at the midway point. When I was shaving my whole face on a regular basis, my face would constantly hurt and look raw. I avoided shaving on the weekends to attempt some degree of recovery, but it was never enough. Ususlly, I cheated and skipped a day in the middle of the week, and because of the red beard and red, irritated skin, it wasn't noticeable.

On a lark, about eight years ago, I shaved it all off, moustache and beard. It lasted for a week. My sweetie didn't like it that way, and most of my friends agreed that I looked better with than without. So now it remains as a long-term fixture. Beard vs. CAP? CAP's loss, not mine.

If there's a medical problem, sounds like grounds for a medical waiver. 

[ColonelJack]

If there's a medical problem, sounds like grounds for a medical waiver. 

Medical waivers aren't available in CAP, because members are not required to wear the AF-style uniform.  There's a uniform for those with beards (aviation grays) and thus, no need for a waiver.

Jack

[ddelaney103]

If there's a medical problem, sounds like grounds for a medical waiver. 

Medical waivers aren't available in CAP, because members are not required to wear the AF-style uniform.  There's a uniform for those with beards (aviation grays) and thus, no need for a waiver.

Jack

So we change the rules.  If we move away from beards, I could see rules for medical exemptions similar to AFI 36-2903.  I think we should also add a religious exemption as well.

I can wear the AF suit, but I would be willing to blow the bucks on the TPU if it meant we were all uniform.

[SARMedTech]

I can sort of see this from both points of view. I sometimes have a beard, and sometimes dont. Im willing to be clean-shaven so that I can wear the USAF uniforms, except,wait, I cant, because I am slightly overweight after an auto accident that Im still recovering from. So I wear corporates. Which, for the most part Im fine with. But, do I wear the aviator shirt and grey trousers, aviator shirts and blue trousers, golf shirt, blazer...oh and if I do wear the trousers and aviator shirt and grey trousers, which grey?  And if we agree on a grey, are they to be pleated, flat fronted, have cargo pockets since I tend to lean toward EMT gear because professionally I do EMS, SAR, Tracking, etc. Same goes with the blue trousers. If we were able to settle that then what about shoes..the regulations are open enough that there will be a variety of shoes as long as they are black. And what about the now being tested USAF service dress uniform with the stand up collar..will we where those? Ive heard that the AF is transitioning to the Marine style BDU cover. If they do, who gets to where those: only the guys in the new digitals or do those of us who are overweight get to wear them in blue. And since we are talking covers, lets talk about my personal favorite, the boonie. I wojuld like to hear some reason for why we cant wear them when every other branch of the service has a variety of them, including the USAF. And when I ask about wearing my ribbons on my white aviator, I was told no, even though regs say Yep sure ya can. I was out and out told it looks stupid. Are you going to walk up to an USAF Major and tell him his look stupid, because I have seen them wear them with the blue service uniform at Kirtland when the SAR group I was with in NM operated out of there. I say we go to one service uniform, one service dress uniform, one mess dress, one BDU and for God's sake lets get rid of the stinking polo shirts. Theres a line from a play that I used to utter every night when I was working in Chicago as an actor: A little consistancy is all I ask.  Thank you. Carry on.

[Dragoon]

I say we go to one service uniform, one service dress uniform, one mess dress, one BDU and for God's sake lets get rid of the stinking polo shirts. Theres a line from a play that I used to utter every night when I was working in Chicago as an actor: A little consistancy is all I ask.  Thank you. Carry on.

Yup, that's pretty much the way to go.  And if we can't have a single version of each, let's at least make sure that the variations look as similar as possible (style, color, insignia, grooming standards, etc.).

Nice and simple.

[Dragoon]

If there's a medical problem, sounds like grounds for a medical waiver. 

Medical waivers aren't available in CAP, because members are not required to wear the AF-style uniform.  There's a uniform for those with beards (aviation grays) and thus, no need for a waiver.

Jack

So we change the rules.  If we move away from beards, I could see rules for medical exemptions similar to AFI 36-2903.  I think we should also add a religious exemption as well.

I can wear the AF suit, but I would be willing to blow the bucks on the TPU if it meant we were all uniform.

What he said.  If we changed the rules to require shaving, we'd have to have a loophole for folks who can't.   The key would be to separate the "can't" from the "don't wanna."  I've got oodles of respect for the former, and very little for the latter.

[ddelaney103]

I can sort of see this from both points of view. I sometimes have a beard, and sometimes dont. Im willing to be clean-shaven so that I can wear the USAF uniforms, except,wait, I cant, because I am slightly overweight after an auto accident that Im still recovering from. So I wear corporates. Which, for the most part Im fine with. But, do I wear the aviator shirt and grey trousers, aviator shirts and blue trousers, golf shirt, blazer...oh and if I do wear the trousers and aviator shirt and grey trousers, which grey?  And if we agree on a grey, are they to be pleated, flat fronted, have cargo pockets since I tend to lean toward EMT gear because professionally I do EMS, SAR, Tracking, etc. Same goes with the blue trousers. If we were able to settle that then what about shoes..the regulations are open enough that there will be a variety of shoes as long as they are black. And what about the now being tested USAF service dress uniform with the stand up collar..will we where those? Ive heard that the AF is transitioning to the Marine style BDU cover. If they do, who gets to where those: only the guys in the new digitals or do those of us who are overweight get to wear them in blue. And since we are talking covers, lets talk about my personal favorite, the boonie. I wojuld like to hear some reason for why we cant wear them when every other branch of the service has a variety of them, including the USAF. And when I ask about wearing my ribbons on my white aviator, I was told no, even though regs say Yep sure ya can. I was out and out told it looks stupid. Are you going to walk up to an USAF Major and tell him his look stupid, because I have seen them wear them with the blue service uniform at Kirtland when the SAR group I was with in NM operated out of there. I say we go to one service uniform, one service dress uniform, one mess dress, one BDU and for God's sake lets get rid of the stinking polo shirts. Theres a line from a play that I used to utter every night when I was working in Chicago as an actor: A little consistancy is all I ask.  Thank you. Carry on.

Dang, SAR - cut a guy some slack and throw in a carriage return once in a while...

A couple of comments:

Boonies are not standard issue in the military.  Except for a few exceptions (deployments, certain duties) most people don't get a choice in headgear.  My first SWA deployment I had to hang up my boonie and wear a mesh-backed DCU ballcap.

As to ribbons, there is a difference b/w reg and custom.  Many of the wannabe's get really cranked about not looking like "Big AF," but in truth that custom is not universal either in AF or CAP.  In the end, if you follow the regs you can do what you want.

As to the gray slacks, for the aviator shirt they shouldn't have cargo pockets, which I suspect would be hard to find for wool slacks.  Since it's supposed to be the equiv of the service uniform, work pants are out.  The golf shirt is a different story as it is a work uniform.  Same with the shoes - dress for aviator, more relaxed for golf shirt.  You get a lot of choices for shoes in the AF service as well, BTW.

I would restrict the golf shirt to limited use and not allow it to be the "go anywhere" suit.

As to choker service dress and 8 point caps, all I can say is don't sweat the future - it's not set in stone.