Beards?

[Hawk200]

The 8 point hat was a CENTAF thing that didn't survive. Most of the Air Force was against it. The friends I have in the Air Force couldn't stand it.

The choker uniform was deemed impractical as a standard service dress, although it is still being considered as a mess or formal dress uniform. One concept permitted the wear of fullsize medals, and it looked pretty good. It may still survive, but not as a general wear item, and would probably only be optional, not clothing bag issue.

The Air Force denied boonies with the reasoning that it was a combat related uniform item. Which is pretty groundless as an explanation, since anyone in a combat theater is only really going to wear a Kevlar for protection. There will be instances where the patrol cap (or whatever the Air Force calls it offically) will be worn, but it won't be a common thing. Personally, I would rather have had them just say no, and not explain, than to make a statement that wasn't really realistic.

[SarDragon]

If there's a medical problem, sounds like grounds for a medical waiver. 

I explored that briefly, with support from my E-8. I was basically told to suck it up and drive on. They could not determine any medical contraindication for shaving for my situation. I usually got by with shaving Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, unless there was a reason to be max spiffy on the other days, then I adjusted accordingly.

These days, I scrape off the excess about once a week, usually Thursday to coincide with my CAP meetings.

[SARMedTech]

The 8 point hat was a CENTAF thing that didn't survive. Most of the Air Force was against it. The friends I have in the Air Force couldn't stand it.

The choker uniform was deemed impractical as a standard service dress, although it is still being considered as a mess or formal dress uniform. One concept permitted the wear of fullsize medals, and it looked pretty good. It may still survive, but not as a general wear item, and would probably only be optional, not clothing bag issue.

The Air Force denied boonies with the reasoning that it was a combat related uniform item. Which is pretty groundless as an explanation, since anyone in a combat theater is only really going to wear a Kevlar for protection. There will be instances where the patrol cap (or whatever the Air Force calls it offically) will be worn, but it won't be a common thing. Personally, I would rather have had them just say no, and not explain, than to make a statement that wasn't really realistic.

Hmmm...arent camoflauge BDUs (or BDUs at all for that matter) a combat related item? What about combat and jungle boots? CFP-90s? Air Force Survival knives? Military issue first aide kits? I mean if we want to follow that rational, just about everything we use could be seen as a combat item: web gear, pistol belts, berets (for those who wear them as authorized). CAP is awash with military items and last time I checked, the main point of the military was...hmmm...combat. You're right. It would have been less insulting to our collective intelligence to just issue a letter saying "Not Authorized" instead of trying to justify it with what ends up being a total non-justification and if they are truly going o use it, would eliminate alot of gear from our kits. I mean if its anything combat related....Dont they use radios in combat? Cyalume sticks? Smoke cannisters?

[Hawk200]

Hmmm...arent camoflauge BDUs (or BDUs at all for that matter) a combat related item? What about combat and jungle boots? CFP-90s? Air Force Survival knives? Military issue first aide kits? I mean if we want to follow that rational, just about everything we use could be seen as a combat item: web gear, pistol belts, berets (for those who wear them as authorized). CAP is awash with military items and last time I checked, the main point of the military was...hmmm...combat. You're right. It would have been less insulting to our collective intelligence to just issue a letter saying "Not Authorized" instead of trying to justify it with what ends up being a total non-justification and if they are truly going o use it, would eliminate alot of gear from our kits. I mean if its anything combat related....Dont they use radios in combat? Cyalume sticks? Smoke cannisters?

Hit the nail on the head. Just say no, don't insult the intelligence of our members. For many in the know, it doesn't fly.

[SARMedTech]

Personally, I am a fan of boonies. Always have been. But I think the thing that cranks me off the most is that on the surface, this may seem like a uniform issue, but it actually also has health ramifications. As an EMT with 160+ hours of medical school level life sciences under my belt and currently working on a medical related MS degree, and having paid attention to what groups like the NIH and the American Cancer Society and other public health organizations have to say, I know that the best way to prevent skin cancer of the face/neck is high SPF sunscreen/chapstick and clothing which protects the body from the sun. When we have been in the field for 72 hours in July or August with the sun beating down on us, those boonies could do a lot to protect face and neck from UV. Furthermore, since most body heat is lost through the top and sides of the head, the looser fit of the boonie allows for more efficient cooling, thus reducing the risk of heat cramps, heat exhaustion and heat stroke, which is, I believe, why this particular cover was issued at hot weather gear in the first place. I guess its another example of being good enough to volunteer our time and effort and spend a great deal to do it, but not to have some cheap, basic items available to us to help protect our health. Ive been told that the boonies are in USAF survival kits (perhaps also CAP pilots kits?) for exactly the reasons I mentioned. Not only is there no logical reason to deny us the wear this cover, there is no reason at all. I look at a pistol belt as more of a combat item than a boonie.

[davedove]

There's a bit of a fallacy to that argument.  Granted, most of the folks in the military don't have to deal with the protective masks everyday.  However, any particular day they may have to, so they are required to be clean shaven.  "Needs of the service" and all that.

You're in Frederick MD, right?  Go over to Ft. Dietrich and look around - which soldiers on that base have any chance of using a protective mask that day?

Zero.  In fact, I'd bet the vast majority aren't even ISSUED masks.

Same for most folks in the military outside of an NBC threat area - no mask and no need for one.

Actually, I work on Ft. Detrick.  Just by chance this morning, I passed a group of soldiers in formation.  They were all decked out in combat gear, and they had their masks strapped on.  So, they do have them here, and since the masks are controlled items, they have to be issued.

Now, I'll agree that most are not issued masks, because they don't need them for day to day.  But every soldier knows the possibility exists that they may be issued one tomorrow, or if the unthinkable happens, in a few minutes.  The standards aren't put in place for those who have the need most of the time.  Some of the troops have the need for the masks, so they must be clean shaven.  The military, in it's "everyone is the same" mentality, says that everyone must follow this standard.

I think the problem most of us have is that the standard does not currently exist for CAP.  If it has always been there, we wouldn't think about it.  Once a privilege exists, it's real hard to take it away.

[Dragoon]

Now, I'll agree that most are not issued masks, because they don't need them for day to day.  But every soldier knows the possibility exists that they may be issued one tomorrow, or if the unthinkable happens, in a few minutes.  The standards aren't put in place for those who have the need most of the time. 

Training, probably using training masks that aren't permanently issued to the individual, and probably not outfitted with actual filters.  Since it was training, odds are no need to shave. 

If civilians, co located with those soldiers (and therefore under the same threat) don't need to shave, neither do the soldiers.  After all, the threat is the same to all, as is the work environment.

The military, in it's "everyone is the same" mentality, says that everyone must follow this standard.

That, without the utility argument, is the true heart of the matter.  Everyone is the same - uniform.  So everyone shaves.  USAF is the same way.  IMHO, we should be the same way, if we want to have things like USAF officer grade, titles like "squadron commander", customs and courtesies. . etc.   Or we could ditch the USAF trappings entirely, declare ourselves a civilian force, get rid of officer grades, and adopt an appropriate civilian appearance.  I think that would work fine as well. 

I think the problem most of us have is that the standard does not currently exist for CAP.  If it has always been there, we wouldn't think about it.  Once a privilege exists, it's real hard to take it away.

Bingo.   This is why real substantive change in CAP, be it about uniforms, operations, admin procedures, cadet program implementation, IT implementation, etc.  is so hard - almost any change involves someone losing something they like. To keep the peace, CAP tends to shy establishing meaningful national standards, and allow each Wing (or in many cases each person) to do things their own way.

[ColonelJack]

That, without the utility argument, is the true heart of the matter.  Everyone is the same - uniform.  So everyone shaves.  USAF is the same way.  IMHO, we should be the same way, if we want to have things like USAF officer grade, titles like "squadron commander", customs and courtesies. . etc.   Or we could ditch the USAF trappings entirely, declare ourselves a civilian force, get rid of officer grades, and adopt an appropriate civilian appearance.  I think that would work fine as well. 

We've discussed that option (doing away with grades, etc.) before, and I still maintain you would lose more than half -- likely three-quarters -- of your membership.  There are many who join CAP just for the military trappings ... not that they are "wannabes," more like they're those who -- for one reason or another -- couldn't be a part of the military but want to serve their country just the same.  Or those who are former military who miss the "old days" and find CAP their way to keep the feelings alive.  Or those who ... well, you get the idea.  Take away the military trappings and, for many, you've just got a regular flying club.

Jack

[SARMedTech]

That, without the utility argument, is the true heart of the matter.  Everyone is the same - uniform.  So everyone shaves.  USAF is the same way.  IMHO, we should be the same way, if we want to have things like USAF officer grade, titles like "squadron commander", customs and courtesies. . etc.   Or we could ditch the USAF trappings entirely, declare ourselves a civilian force, get rid of officer grades, and adopt an appropriate civilian appearance.  I think that would work fine as well. 

We've discussed that option (doing away with grades, etc.) before, and I still maintain you would lose more than half -- likely three-quarters -- of your membership.  There are many who join CAP just for the military trappings ... not that they are "wannabes," more like they're those who -- for one reason or another -- couldn't be a part of the military but want to serve their country just the same.  Or those who are former military who miss the "old days" and find CAP their way to keep the feelings alive.  Or those who ... well, you get the idea.  Take away the military trappings and, for many, you've just got a regular flying club.

Jack

Actually, I think you would have something more akin to an un-uniformed quasi-military organization providing operational support and what amounts to force multiplication to the United States military. That is if you only took away the bling and the duds.

And for the record, Ive joined CAP because at age 33, I tried to join the Reserves of every one of the armed forces and wanted to serve as a corpsman, health services specialist, etc and despite the current huge recruiting blitz was politely shown the door because I wanted to serve my country my putting people back together and not taking them apart. I was particularly interested in the USCG and because I wasn't interested in a Port Security Specialist billet, they suddenly stopped their aggressive campaign to recruit me.

[Dragoon]

And it wouldn't necessarily be un-uniformed - just un-military.

We might lose members - those who value the militaryness of CAP over the services it performs.  But those attracted to the mission would remain.

I think we would be better with either a "military" or "civilian" approach - and either is preferable with the current hybrid, schizophrenic do whatever turns you on culture we have now.

I'd prefer more military, but question whether we will ever have the time and member buy-in to make it a reality. 

[capchiro]

I hate to admit it, but without the uniforms, I don't think we would have many cadets, but they usually don't have to worry about beards, however, there was this young lady I once met while serving with the Navy from the great state of Nebraska, but I digress..

[Dragoon]

I hate to admit it, but without the uniforms, I don't think we would have many cadets, but they usually don't have to worry about beards, however, there was this young lady I once met while serving with the Navy from the great state of Nebraska, but I digress..

You're absolutely right.  A non-military cadet program would be a MUCH bigger shift than a non-military senior program. I can't imagine it would be much of a draw, unless we promised every kid flight training.

[ELTHunter]

Its a bit off the subject, but still to do with "military style" grooming. I was watching a documentary the other night about spec ops folks in Iraq. Can anyone tell me why all of them were wearing beards and most of them had long-ish, very shaggy hair. They seemed to be having alot of interaction with Iraqi civilians and I wondered if it was because a beard is the "sign of a man" in many Arabic countries.

Thanks to anyone who can answer this one for me.

Spec Ops like Special Forces ans SEALS may need to blend in with the indigenous population.

[ddelaney103]

Its a bit off the subject, but still to do with "military style" grooming. I was watching a documentary the other night about spec ops folks in Iraq. Can anyone tell me why all of them were wearing beards and most of them had long-ish, very shaggy hair. They seemed to be having alot of interaction with Iraqi civilians and I wondered if it was because a beard is the "sign of a man" in many Arabic countries.

Thanks to anyone who can answer this one for me.

Spec Ops like Special Forces ans SEALS may need to blend in with the indigenous population.

And this is a running fight between the SOF types and the mainstream military.  In AFSOC, I think their 36-2903 supplement says "wear whatever supports the mission and call it pro gear.  March on, HUA!"