Weight Standard ABU/BDU

[NCRblues]

OMG...

I feel like we just had this conversation, oh wait we did, on June 17th.

So, once again.

I have been to NBB a lot, love the activity and training, hate the beret. BUT...

The USAF and specifically the Secuirty Forces AFSC has ZERO repeat ZERO issue with any headgear that CAP does or does not wear!

Not only does the very very vast majority of SF have no idea who CAP even is, the ones that have an inkling of what CAP is do not care if someone wears a blue looking beret at all.

In a squadron of around 600 cops, I was the only CAP member. No one in my unit knew or cared at all about CAP, let alone headgear.

Another aspect, I have spoken directly, several times in fact, to the AF's "top cop" on this issue. I know you are all going to be shocked at this, but his first reaction was "what's caps?". His second reaction was "people really think we are wasting our time thinking or caring about what you all wear? (Insert laughter here)".

The beret gives no power to SF cops at all. None, zero, nada. Being on duty gives SF cops authorities like enforcement, Secuirty and detention/arrest, not the beret. An on duty SF member is a cop. An off duty SF member is just another Airman with no special powers. The dark blue beret isn't some massive power tool that commands absolute authority on AF bases, nor a red hat for CATM or red horse. It's just what you put on, nothing more or less.

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

[MHC5096]

NCRblues is 100% spot on.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Luis R. Ramos]

From NCRBlues

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Reminds me of a famous quote. I am not sure of the origin, nor of the context. I think it came from a cartoon, Pogo. It goes...

Have met the enemy, and it is us!

1. When we complain publicly about NHQ...
2. When we refuse to adhere to regulations, pamphlets, and manuals, be they crystal clear or muddy as swampy water...
3. When we complain about Ma Blue, access to bases, or misunderstandings about uniforms and/or policies...

[arajca]

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Except for boonies hats with BDUs. They do care and have repeated said NO!!!!!!!!

[NCRblues]

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Except for boonies hats with BDUs. They do care and have repeated said NO!!!!!!!!

Cite please.

Other than stories of "well I heard from bob who spoke to Tim who spoke to Bonnie at cap-usaf and they said NO!" I have never ever seen something from CAP-USAF or the AF proper that said "omg, we should never let CAP have boonies"

[jeders]

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Except for boonies hats with BDUs. They do care and have repeated said NO!!!!!!!!

Cite please.

Other than stories of "well I heard from bob who spoke to Tim who spoke to Bonnie at cap-usaf and they said NO!" I have never ever seen something from CAP-USAF or the AF proper that said "omg, we should never let CAP have boonies"

How about the live streamed National Board meetings where CAP-USAF flatly said, "NO!"

[stillamarine]

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Except for boonies hats with BDUs. They do care and have repeated said NO!!!!!!!!

Cite please.

Other than stories of "well I heard from bob who spoke to Tim who spoke to Bonnie at cap-usaf and they said NO!" I have never ever seen something from CAP-USAF or the AF proper that said "omg, we should never let CAP have boonies"

How about the live streamed National Board meetings where CAP-USAF flatly said, "NO!"

Well I didn't watch all of them but I watched a good portion I believe. I never saw it come up. Must have missed the one you saw.


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[PHall]

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Except for boonies hats with BDUs. They do care and have repeated said NO!!!!!!!!

Cite please.

Other than stories of "well I heard from bob who spoke to Tim who spoke to Bonnie at cap-usaf and they said NO!" I have never ever seen something from CAP-USAF or the AF proper that said "omg, we should never let CAP have boonies"

How about the live streamed National Board meetings where CAP-USAF flatly said, "NO!"

Yeah, which year did that happen? Because I watched many of them and I don't remember it being addressed.
So maybe give us a memory clue by saying which year it was brought up.

[etodd]

This thread is confusing. Since it started out as discussing weight standards, and has now progressed to hats, it begs the question:

Are you limited to a certain type of headgear/covering/hat based on your hat size? Meaning you cannot wear certain covers if you are a fat head? 

[NCRblues]

Members of this origination need to stop trumpeting their presumed "will of the AF". Stop making the AF out to be the boogie man. They. Don't. Care.

Except for boonies hats with BDUs. They do care and have repeated said NO!!!!!!!!

Cite please.

Other than stories of "well I heard from bob who spoke to Tim who spoke to Bonnie at cap-usaf and they said NO!" I have never ever seen something from CAP-USAF or the AF proper that said "omg, we should never let CAP have boonies"

How about the live streamed National Board meetings where CAP-USAF flatly said, "NO!"

Cite please?

Setting aside the fact that this isn't how items were conducted at NB/NEC meetings, I attended every NB meeting from 2004-2010, several of the years I attended as a sort of "aide" to Rex Glasgow. I have no personal recollection of anything even near this occurring.

I am currently reviewing the minutes of the NB meetings, I am up to 2007 and nothing yet.

This is a perfect example of what I stated earlier, CAP has done an amazing job down to the local level of making the big USAF the boogie man for every unpopular decision by any level.

We must stop this.

[Eclipse]

I am currently reviewing the minutes of the NB meetings, I am up to 2007 and nothing yet.

You're one year short.

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. Woodland camouflage or
blue is more likely to receive favorable consideration than orange. If the proposal is
approved, the request to Air Staff should be specific and limit wear to field condition
circumstances and not routine "in-garrison" wear. This would be consistent with USAF
regulations."

And despite the fact that the motion was carried to request the gardening hats with the BDU,
by April "someone" had said "no" (again).

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2008_04_01_uniforms_5479B9F312F3E.pdf

"2. Several other uniform proposals were approved but require the approval of the Air
Force before implementation. When this approval is received these items will be
announced. The items listed above will be incorporated into the next revision of CAPM 39-1."

[etodd]

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. "

"Air Staff".  As the guy who knows little of these things except that everyone tells me all decisions have to be run the chain .... Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown? Or maybe his wife's favorite color? You may say they do 'in depth studies'. So a few folks sit around at lunch and look at some possible combinations and they vote?

Joking aside, it really would be interesting to see just how many times these things get run up the chain, back down the chain, then back up, etc. and how the eventual decision is actually made. Do they ever reveal the 'why we did it this way' ... or are we little guys just told what to wear and wonder if it really was a coin toss in the end?

[PHall]

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. "

"Air Staff".  As the guy who knows little of these things except that everyone tells me all decisions have to be run the chain .... Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown? Or maybe his wife's favorite color? You may say they do 'in depth studies'. So a few folks sit around at lunch and look at some possible combinations and they vote?

Joking aside, it really would be interesting to see just how many times these things get run up the chain, back down the chain, then back up, etc. and how the eventual decision is actually made. Do they ever reveal the 'why we did it this way' ... or are we little guys just told what to wear and wonder if it really was a coin toss in the end?

The "Air Staff" is the staff that works for the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force in the Pentagon.  IIRC it has about 100ish people assigned.

[etodd]

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. "

"Air Staff".  As the guy who knows little of these things except that everyone tells me all decisions have to be run the chain .... Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown? Or maybe his wife's favorite color? You may say they do 'in depth studies'. So a few folks sit around at lunch and look at some possible combinations and they vote?

Joking aside, it really would be interesting to see just how many times these things get run up the chain, back down the chain, then back up, etc. and how the eventual decision is actually made. Do they ever reveal the 'why we did it this way' ... or are we little guys just told what to wear and wonder if it really was a coin toss in the end?

The "Air Staff" is the staff that works for the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force in the Pentagon.  IIRC it has about 100ish people assigned.

I wonder how many of those 100 spend time on deciding uniform issues? Might be like the old saying about having too many cooks in the kitchen, if they have to get all 100 to agree.

[NCRblues]

I am currently reviewing the minutes of the NB meetings, I am up to 2007 and nothing yet.

You're one year short.

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. Woodland camouflage or
blue is more likely to receive favorable consideration than orange. If the proposal is
approved, the request to Air Staff should be specific and limit wear to field condition
circumstances and not routine "in-garrison" wear. This would be consistent with USAF
regulations."

And despite the fact that the motion was carried to request the gardening hats with the BDU,
by April "someone" had said "no" (again).

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2008_04_01_uniforms_5479B9F312F3E.pdf

"2. Several other uniform proposals were approved but require the approval of the Air
Force before implementation. When this approval is received these items will be
announced. The items listed above will be incorporated into the next revision of CAPM 39-1."

Ok, good cite.

I never stated the AF does not have approval over uniform items. Nor did I state that the AF never says no on items.

I simply stand by my saying that your avarage member has no real contact with the USAF in our "chain of command" and has no firsthand knowledge of what the AF does or does not want CAP to do/wear.

In the cite, it stated that CAP-USAF (our AF main supervisor) was supportive of this, so no one stood up at a national board meeting and said NO!! More than likely, this was turned down at levels above reason for "reasons".

[Eclipse]

In the cite, it stated that CAP-USAF (our AF main supervisor) was supportive of this, so no one stood up at a national board meeting and said NO!! More than likely, this was turned down at levels above reason for "reasons".

Most likely, but seriously, you're a USAF Col watching the clock for retirement, a star (or two) says "no gardening hats for CAP...", why on earth would you
waste any time on pursuing it?

[PHall]

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. "

"Air Staff".  As the guy who knows little of these things except that everyone tells me all decisions have to be run the chain .... Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown? Or maybe his wife's favorite color? You may say they do 'in depth studies'. So a few folks sit around at lunch and look at some possible combinations and they vote?

Joking aside, it really would be interesting to see just how many times these things get run up the chain, back down the chain, then back up, etc. and how the eventual decision is actually made. Do they ever reveal the 'why we did it this way' ... or are we little guys just told what to wear and wonder if it really was a coin toss in the end?

The "Air Staff" is the staff that works for the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force in the Pentagon.  IIRC it has about 100ish people assigned.

I wonder how many of those 100 spend time on deciding uniform issues? Might be like the old saying about having too many cooks in the kitchen, if they have to get all 100 to agree.

You don't know how staffs work, do you.   What they do is make up a staff package for the General.
They spell out the "problem", identify the issues and give the General a number of options to choose from. The General makes the final decision.

[etodd]

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. "

"Air Staff".  As the guy who knows little of these things except that everyone tells me all decisions have to be run the chain .... Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown? Or maybe his wife's favorite color? You may say they do 'in depth studies'. So a few folks sit around at lunch and look at some possible combinations and they vote?

Joking aside, it really would be interesting to see just how many times these things get run up the chain, back down the chain, then back up, etc. and how the eventual decision is actually made. Do they ever reveal the 'why we did it this way' ... or are we little guys just told what to wear and wonder if it really was a coin toss in the end?

The "Air Staff" is the staff that works for the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force in the Pentagon.  IIRC it has about 100ish people assigned.

I wonder how many of those 100 spend time on deciding uniform issues? Might be like the old saying about having too many cooks in the kitchen, if they have to get all 100 to agree.

You don't know how staffs work, do you.   What they do is make up a staff package for the General.
They spell out the "problem", identify the issues and give the General a number of options to choose from. The General makes the final decision.

You didn't read all my posts above. When I said ... "Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown?" ....... I described what you just said about the General. LOL

.

[PHall]

Feb / March 2008 NB Minutes, Page 41-43:
"This proposal was previously disapproved by the Air Staff; however, CAP-USAF
supports the proposal and will resubmit for Air Staff approval. "

"Air Staff".  As the guy who knows little of these things except that everyone tells me all decisions have to be run the chain .... Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown? Or maybe his wife's favorite color? You may say they do 'in depth studies'. So a few folks sit around at lunch and look at some possible combinations and they vote?

Joking aside, it really would be interesting to see just how many times these things get run up the chain, back down the chain, then back up, etc. and how the eventual decision is actually made. Do they ever reveal the 'why we did it this way' ... or are we little guys just told what to wear and wonder if it really was a coin toss in the end?

The "Air Staff" is the staff that works for the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force in the Pentagon.  IIRC it has about 100ish people assigned.

I wonder how many of those 100 spend time on deciding uniform issues? Might be like the old saying about having too many cooks in the kitchen, if they have to get all 100 to agree.

You don't know how staffs work, do you.   What they do is make up a staff package for the General.
They spell out the "problem", identify the issues and give the General a number of options to choose from. The General makes the final decision.

You didn't read all my posts above. When I said ... "Do uniform decisions eventually wind up on some high ranking official's desk, who flips a coin to decide whether blue or brown?" ....... I described what you just said about the General. LOL

.

Yes, a General Officer will make a decision on CAP uniforms based on what's in the Staff Package.
The Air Force has reserved the right to control the CAP "Air Force style" uniforms.

[SMKITCHEN]

JROTC wears, black, red, white and tan berets. Doesn't seem to bother anyone else.
[/quote]

And it really shouldn't, if there's any organization that falls under the HOLMS center that's as distinctly distinguishable from the Air Force as CAP then its the JROTC. Berets are just another form of cover for the uniform, the argument here is that berets should be strictly for Military units? I understand how berets in the air force are used to distinguish between Security Forces, Para rescue, and other special forces in the USAF but like it was mentioned in a previous thread, the Army issues berets to every private who graduates basic, and whether they continue to wear it is totally dependent on the commander of that regiment I believe. Just as is in CAP, its at the discretion of the CC, its been the same for decades so what's all of a sudden wrong with it now??