Weight Standard ABU/BDU

[Toad1168]

All this talk of weight is making me hungry. Time for a slab of Dreamland ribs. Extra sauce please!

Mmmmmmmmmm ribs.........

[AirAux]

And therein lies the rub.  We don't need Air Force uniforms if not all members can wear them.  We need a uniform that is uniform throughout our organization.  How can we play "Uniforms" if we ain't??

[grunt82abn]

And therein lies the rub.  We don't need Air Force uniforms if not all members can wear them.  We need a uniform that is uniform throughout our organization.  How can we play "Uniforms" if we ain't??

Good point!!!

[Spam]

(Ahem) Seam-bulging Field Grade that I am now...


Welcome to the club. I want to stress something POSITIVE for you, Sir.  The good news is that your membership in our fat kid club is NOT permanent; when striking for a billet a few years ago, I hit the pavement and the gym and dropped thirty pounds in a few months, made weight, made tape (stupid procedure). It can be done. So, at age 21, you have a golden opportunity to apply yourself now to gain your goal to wear the BDUs, Blues, and ABUs legally:  eat less/eat right, and exercise. Its very simple, and in my experience easier when you're younger.


On reassuming command last summer, I faced my self in the mirror (finding that a bigger mirror seemed called for) and was honest with myself: I needed to set the example and hang up the BDUs (blues were already dusty in the closet). I've since had the man to man private conversation with a couple of my officers and we've jointly hung up our USAF styles until (when and if) we earn our way out of the Club.


Do the right thing. It will be noticed. We've had our first instance of an overweight officer visiting our unit in new ABUs, and I could HEAR the eyeballs click as our cadets looked at him, and at my officers who publicly have shifted to G/Ws and polos. Don't think that cadets won't see and appreciate your integrity in upholding the regs and the Core Values - I've heard multiple comments already about fat ABU "posers" that I had to quash (even though I agreed)!


V/R
Spam

[vorteks]

And therein lies the rub.  We don't need Air Force uniforms if not all members can wear them.  We need a uniform that is uniform throughout our organization.  How can we play "Uniforms" if we ain't??

+1 except for cadets

[Robert Hartigan]

Weight standards suck period. I'm am under the maximum weight for my height. But I have a belly that looks like crap in blues. Even at work most the guys I work with are surprised of what my weight is and have told me they thought I was about 20 pounds more than I actually weigh. So if you tried to 2b me for wearing a uniform I technically can wear, we'd have a fight going.

This is why there should be annual weigh-ins for anyone who wants to wear USAF combos.

Not interested, no issue.

Want to?  There's the scale.

But we've been informed on numerous occasions that an organization like CAP, which loans people complex aircraft on a daily
basis, manages a $25-50MM annual budget, and purports to be a protector of life and property, isn't capable of figuring out
a way to insure everyone complies with the standard.

I would hazard just the threat of a weigh-in would be enough to embarrass most perpetrators to not bother.

I loved it when doing a Weight & Balance for one of those expensive CAP airplanes and the other guy's weight in e-Service was a pound under the 39-1 H&W table. Reviewing the W&B before submitting it to WMIRS and getting the *cough* *cough* "I'm more like 255 not 205." Okay, Colonel which way do you want to play this? 1. You meet H&W standards and are allowed to wear that sausage casing you call an Air Force flight suit or, 2.We cancel because you are not in uniform? Do you have a polo shirt in the car?

[Eclipse]

And therein lies the rub.  We don't need Air Force uniforms if not all members can wear them.  We need a uniform that is uniform throughout our organization.  How can we play "Uniforms" if we ain't??

+1 except for cadets

The same principles apply for everyone, cadets and seniors. 

The current state of the multi-form isn't helping recruiting or esprit-de-corps - 5 possible field uniform combinations - 5.

And that situation will persist longer then most cadets who join in the next couple of years will actually be cadets, assuming there aren't
additional changes before 2021.

[Nick]

This is why there should be annual weigh-ins for anyone who wants to wear USAF combos.

Not interested, no issue.

Want to?  There's the scale.

Yeah, I agree. But I bet you good money 70% of CAP would just pencil-whip the weigh-in requirement unless it was required to be captured somewhere in eservices and have a two-man sign off or some crazy requirement.


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[etodd]

OK ... I'm the civilian, so I'll ask. If a person trying to join the military is well overweight and has a health condition that inhibits their ever being able to make it to limits, they get turned away. The military guys are ABLE to keep fit and wear the proper uniforms. Correct?

CAP is an inclusive civilian organization. Correct? We accept folks with diabetes, handicaps and many other conditions that the military turns down.

When you make folks with medical conditions feel 'unworthy' because they can't get all dressed up in formal blues for a rubber chicken dinner at a conference ....

IT GOES TO RETENTION ISSUES.

[Nick]

Yep. And that leads to the camp with the argument that we should do away with the AF uniform for senior members, leave it for cadets, and put all senior members exclusively in corporate uniforms.

Is it a bad idea? Not necessarily. Would we lose senior members if we did that? Probably. Would it be enough to hurt the organization? Doubtful.


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[Eclipse]

This is why there should be annual weigh-ins for anyone who wants to wear USAF combos.

Not interested, no issue.

Want to?  There's the scale.

Yeah, I agree. But I bet you good money 70% of CAP would just pencil-whip the weigh-in requirement unless it was required to be captured somewhere in eservices and have a two-man sign off or some crazy requirement.

That's an integrity issue, but if you're right, and this is literally an unmanageable problem, then
the charts need to go,  since in that case they simply become a beacon pointing the to the lack of credibility in CAP Commanders.

And make no mistake, this is an end-to-end command issue - there's no pressure to enforce, no ramifications for
failure to enforce, and in far too many cases those charged with enforcement are lacking credibility themselves.

Is it a bad idea? Not necessarily. Would we lose senior members if we did that? Probably. Would it be enough to hurt the organization? Doubtful.

Further to this, are members and commanders who would willingly violate such a clear, simple set of regulations any
loss to the organizaiton to begin with?

[Nick]

And make no mistake, this is an end-to-end command issue - there's no pressure to enforce, no ramifications for failure to enforce, and in far too many cases those charged with enforcement are lacking credibility themselves.

I'm afraid that's true in many circumstances, not just in this subject. Some of it is lack of knowledge sharing (which in itself is a command issue), some is ignorance (a command and training issue), and some more is purely a "I don't think this is important enough to consume my volunteer cycles" attitude (yet another command issue). No matter how you add it up, it seems our accountability system is lacking and needs help.

I think Nin might have some ideas on how to improve this issue.

Further to this, are members and commanders who would willingly violate such a clear, simple set of regulations any
loss to the organizaiton to begin with?

Absolutely not. It wouldn't hurt my feelings any (other than the money I just spent on ABUs), and it would help weed out those that really want to be here vs. those who want to play Air Force.

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[etodd]

... it would help weed out those that really want to be here vs. those who want to play Air Force.

I don't mind those guys. They are always good for a chuckle.  I just don't want them ignoring the fact that as a civilian organization we DO invite people with health issues to join, and they should NEVER make an issue with a health challenged person in regards to their weight, or make them feel bad about it, or exclude them from an activity due to not being able to wear a skinny uniform.

They may not be able to fly in a plane, but they can work the radios at Mission Base and many, many other needed and necessary jobs. CAP has a place for most anyone, of any shape, size and handicap.



.

[PHall]

... it would help weed out those that really want to be here vs. those who want to play Air Force.

I don't mind those guys. They are always good for a chuckle.  I just don't want them ignoring the fact that as a civilian organization we DO invite people with health issues to join, and they should NEVER make an issue with a health challenged person in regards to their weight, or make them feel bad about it, or exclude them from an activity due to not being able to wear a skinny uniform.

They may not be able to fly in a plane, but they can work the radios at Mission Base and many, many other needed and necessary jobs. CAP has a place for most anyone, of any shape, size and handicap.



.

Kinda the reason CAP was formed in 1941...

[Майор Хаткевич]

... it would help weed out those that really want to be here vs. those who want to play Air Force.

I don't mind those guys. They are always good for a chuckle.  I just don't want them ignoring the fact that as a civilian organization we DO invite people with health issues to join, and they should NEVER make an issue with a health challenged person in regards to their weight, or make them feel bad about it, or exclude them from an activity due to not being able to wear a skinny uniform.

They may not be able to fly in a plane, but they can work the radios at Mission Base and many, many other needed and necessary jobs. CAP has a place for most anyone, of any shape, size and handicap.



.

AF Uniforms are no limit to participation.

[DakRadz]

etodd- while "No polos" can be mandated, I have NEVER seen an activity say "AF Blues, don't dare show up in Grey and Whites"


Every AF uniform has an equivalent that can be worn by those who have exceeded weight or grooming allowances. And heck, formal events is usually a business suit/tux, instead of paying for Mess Dress.


There is no limit I am aware of if you choose not to wear or are unable to wear AF style uniforms. There may be a distinction, but hurt feelings or a hit to morale does not equal substantiated unequal treatment.

1st Lt Raduenz

[Eclipse]

There may be a distinction, but hurt feelings or a hit to morale does not equal substantiated unequal treatment.

Agreed, but it is an issue in regards to retention.   "Equal access to the work to be done with unequal access to recognition and the
esprit-de-corps a uniform and decorations provides" is a typical CAP "fix".

A "this is fine for them" attitude seems to prevail, while at the same time the "them" is doing the lion's share of the work.

The there's the credibility issues when members and commanders ignore the rules for the sake of being in the club.

Either the uniform matters or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways, and you certainly can't wave the "we're all in this together flag"
when clearly everyone isn't.  That's not how the math on this works.

And all you need to do is look around at meetings to see who is already in ABUs to know where and how much the uniform "matters".

[DakRadz]

Agreed, Eclipse.

But I was specifically responding to etodd's statement, which appears to suggest members are precluded from participation due to what uniforms they are allowed to wear. If this is the case, something is wrong with that activity, not actual regulations (there may be an authorized exception I am not aware of, but unlikely)

I acknowledge that there may be a hit to morale for those who can't wear AF style. But that wasn't what I intended to  address.

1st Lt Raduenz

[NIN]

etodd- while "No polos" can be mandated, I have NEVER seen an activity say "AF Blues, don't dare show up in Grey and Whites"

Exactly.  Blues or corporate equivalent.

a polo shirt and grey tactical pants has been touted as "the only uniform you ever need as a senior."

Which is NOT true.

1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style
uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. <snip>

[etodd]

Y'all are getting into specifics .... when my post is more about 'attitudes'.  Its a different subject altogether.

As I said earlier:

We accept folks with diabetes, handicaps and many other health conditions that the military turns down.

When you make folks with medical conditions feel 'unworthy' ....

IT GOES TO RETENTION ISSUES.

Many of these threads where folks are being made to feel inferior because they are not losing weight to conform to standards .... are borderline 'bullying' in my view.