Weight Standard ABU/BDU

[PHall]

Y'all are getting into specifics .... when my post is more about 'attitudes'.  Its a different subject altogether.

As I said earlier:

We accept folks with diabetes, handicaps and many other health conditions that the military turns down.

When you make folks with medical conditions feel 'unworthy' ....

IT GOES TO RETENTION ISSUES.

Many of these threads where folks are being made to feel inferior because they are not losing weight to conform to standards .... are borderline 'bullying' in my view.

Just about any organization you can join has rules. You don't want to follow the rules, suffer the consequences.
Works that way in CAP, the Elks, the Masons and even the VFW.
And it's not even close to being "bullying".

[etodd]

Y'all are getting into specifics .... when my post is more about 'attitudes'.  Its a different subject altogether.

As I said earlier:

We accept folks with diabetes, handicaps and many other health conditions that the military turns down.

When you make folks with medical conditions feel 'unworthy' ....

IT GOES TO RETENTION ISSUES.

Many of these threads where folks are being made to feel inferior because they are not losing weight to conform to standards .... are borderline 'bullying' in my view.

Just about any organization you can join has rules. You don't want to follow the rules, suffer the consequences.
Works that way in CAP, the Elks, the Masons and even the VFW.
And it's not even close to being "bullying".

Again ... you're talking RULES.  I'm talking ATTITUDES.

Which does go to the retention issues CAP has. CAP could be such a huge organization now, even if recruitment stayed the same. but we kept more folks happy enough to stay with us instead of running away.

There is a balance in this somewhere ... and we haven't found it as an org.

.

[abdsp51]

Many of these threads where folks are being made to feel inferior because they are not losing weight to conform to standards .... are borderline 'bullying' in my view.

You may want to clarify that.  The only time someone has ever been told anything about that are those who willfully choose to wear a beard, long hair or be overweight. 

[etodd]

I'll just stop here. I'm talking about one thing and others another thing. Apples and oranges. My topic for another thread one day. I'll leave this one alone now.

[Panzerbjorn]

For me, it's quite simple.  If I'm not allowed to look like a soldier, don't expect me to act like a soldier.

I'm quite content at this point in my life to act like a professional corporate pilot and look like one.  I'm fine in my grey slacks and blue polo shirt.  I wear the blue flight suit when I feel like wearing shorts and a t-shirt underneath.  Finally, I get amused by members who take themselves way too seriously and forget we're flying Cessnas, not Vipers.

Personally, I like the idea of everyone being in ABUs.  You're a whole lot easier to see from the air than you are in BDUs or even BBDUs.

[PHall]

For me, it's quite simple.  If I'm not allowed to look like a soldier, don't expect me to act like a soldier.

I'm quite content at this point in my life to act like a professional corporate pilot and look like one.  I'm fine in my grey slacks and blue polo shirt.  I wear the blue flight suit when I feel like wearing shorts and a t-shirt underneath.  Finally, I get amused by members who take themselves way too seriously and forget we're flying Cessnas, not Vipers.

Personally, I like the idea of everyone being in ABUs.  You're a whole lot easier to see from the air than you are in BDUs or even BBDUs.

Yeah, but you're not looking for us. You're looking for the lost guys!

[Panzerbjorn]

For me, it's quite simple.  If I'm not allowed to look like a soldier, don't expect me to act like a soldier.

I'm quite content at this point in my life to act like a professional corporate pilot and look like one.  I'm fine in my grey slacks and blue polo shirt.  I wear the blue flight suit when I feel like wearing shorts and a t-shirt underneath.  Finally, I get amused by members who take themselves way too seriously and forget we're flying Cessnas, not Vipers.

Personally, I like the idea of everyone being in ABUs.  You're a whole lot easier to see from the air than you are in BDUs or even BBDUs.

Yeah, but you're not looking for us. You're looking for the lost guys!

Yes, and when I find them, it makes it a whole lot easier to lead you to them if I can see you on the ground.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'll just stop here. I'm talking about one thing and others another thing. Apples and oranges. My topic for another thread one day. I'll leave this one alone now.

No, people got your perception, and try to point out that it's wrong.

[kirbahashi]

I loved it when doing a Weight & Balance for one of those expensive CAP airplanes and the other guy's weight in e-Service was a pound under the 39-1 H&W table. Reviewing the W&B before submitting it to WMIRS and getting the *cough* *cough* "I'm more like 255 not 205." Okay, Colonel which way do you want to play this? 1. You meet H&W standards and are allowed to wear that sausage casing you call an Air Force flight suit or, 2.We cancel because you are not in uniform? Do you have a polo shirt in the car?

THIS!  Right there!

I don't give a squirt about the ABU nor the BDU.  I stopped wearing them when I retired from the AF. I don't wear my blues either.  Not because I don't love the uniform, it is because I am too big.  And it grinds my gears (Peter Griffin moment) when I see a Colonel walking around sporting .50 cal buttons and neck folds.  You and I both know he is over the limit.  And has been called on it. And nothing will ever happen. 

So tell me integrity is alive and well in this organization.  Because I will show you their 101 card, and then I will produce the weight and balance.  One is within the standard, and the other shatters the glass ceiling!

And actually, I am not even peeved.  Just don't sit there and lie to my face because I know they are full of it.  And so does the room.  So what does that say in regards to the rest of their credibility?

And FWIW, "sausage casing you call a flight suit" made me giggle.  I am stealing that.

[Meridius]

Weight tables are not always accurate.  At 20, in the best shape of my life (maxed Army PT test each period for 3 years), I was 15 pounds over the weight limit and put on the "fat boy" program for extra PT based on a weight table.  That went on for two weeks until my Battalion Surgeon looked at me and said "get, shouldn't be here."  Never mind I passed tape and the vat.  25 years later, I've only gained 25 pounds. 

My point is: at age 20 and age 47, I fail the weight tables as published for my body type.  I am 12 pounds over the CAP limit.  IF I was 50 or 75 pounds over this limit, then the "sausage casing" (how funny!) would definitely apply and maybe some scrutiny should be observed and applied.  These tables tend to paint with a broad brush.  I still can hike with 35 pounds for 12 miles, just not under 3 hour requirment anymore.  I am getting older and my waist has expanded some, but I PREFER to wear the BDU in the field and plan to move to the ABU very soon.   Remember, we are volunteers.  Many of us are veterans.

Weight tables should be used as a guide not as a discriminary rule.  If you are morbidly obese, then self discipline and common sense should dictate.

[Eclipse]

Weight tables should be used as a guide not as a discriminary rule. 

Well they aren't, and whether it's 12 over, 20 over or 1 over, if you're over then USAF-styles are not an option for you.

"I look OK" isn't your call, it's part of the problem.

Remember, we are volunteers.  Many of us are veterans.

The former is true, I don't see how the latter is relevent to this discussion.

[dwb]

Lots of good points here. Let's see if I can sum up so we have a reference post for when this issue comes up again in the next 6-12 months (as it does every 6-12 months).

1. Corporate uniforms are for all seniors. I regularly wear my aviator shirt or polo. There ought to be no shame, no stigma, in anyone wearing corporate uniforms. If you think they're second-class uniforms for second-class citizens, then you are wrong.

2. We have weight standards because the USAF told us to. It is the price senior members pay to wear the uniform of our parent service.

3. The chart in 39-1 is formatted the way it is to show you that our weight standards are 10% over the (now defunct) USAF standards.

4. Weight charts are imperfect. No one argues otherwise. Be happy we're not taping people's waists, because that's an even more precarious (and intrusive) way to determine fitness. Weight charts are discriminatory against football players and powerlifters who are otherwise in good health. Such is life.

5. If you know you personally do not meet the weight standards, then the right thing to do is to wear corporate uniforms.

6. If you are a commander and you strongly suspect one of your people is wearing a USAF uniform when they shouldn't, you have an obligation to discuss it with them. Good leadership starts with you.

7. Voluntary or mandatory weigh-ins are probably not feasible. If we all followed rules 5 and 6 above, they would also be unnecessary.

8. Whatever uniform you wear, you ought to wear it well. Cadets, military brethren, ES mission partners, etc... they will respect a good uniform no matter which one it is. You can cut a sharp figure in an aviator shirt, and you can be slovenly in blues. Look sharp and take pride in your uniform.

Did I miss anything?

[Meridius]

^-----

Yep, I meet the Air Force's new BMT standard, just not the CAPM 39-1 published table, which was my point.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Weight tables are not always accurate.  At 20, in the best shape of my life (maxed Army PT test each period for 3 years), I was 15 pounds over the weight limit and put on the "fat boy" program for extra PT based on a weight table.  That went on for two weeks until my Battalion Surgeon looked at me and said "get, shouldn't be here."  Never mind I passed tape and the vat.  25 years later, I've only gained 25 pounds. 

My point is: at age 20 and age 47, I fail the weight tables as published for my body type.  I am 12 pounds over the CAP limit.  IF I was 50 or 75 pounds over this limit, then the "sausage casing" (how funny!) would definitely apply and maybe some scrutiny should be observed and applied.  These tables tend to paint with a broad brush.  I still can hike with 35 pounds for 12 miles, just not under 3 hour requirment anymore.  I am getting older and my waist has expanded some, but I PREFER to wear the BDU in the field and plan to move to the ABU very soon.   Remember, we are volunteers.  Many of us are veterans.

Weight tables should be used as a guide not as a discriminary rule.  If you are morbidly obese, then self discipline and common sense should dictate.

Exception to the rule. If someone is a lifter and is 250lbs of muscle, they won't look like someone else who is 250lbs of fat.

[Meridius]

^----- (both comments above)

Yep, I meet the Air Force's new BMT standard, just not the CAPM 39-1 published table, which was my point.

CAPM 39-1 should adopt Big Blue's standard with a 10% factor (or a max AC of 42.9") and be done with it.  Seniors do not do PT, maybe that should be reconsidered as well.  I know HMRS program requires it for advancement in grade.

[Eclipse]

Salient or not, the points made don't change the below, or make it "OK".

I am 12 pounds over the CAP limit.

I am getting older and my waist has expanded some, but I PREFER to wear the BDU in the field and plan to move to the ABU very soon.

[SMKITCHEN]

I amazed that we continue to publish a weight standard table next to the Air Force maximum allowable weight since the Air Force quit having one like 10 years ago. Just call it the CAP weight standard.

Or, considering how widely it is ignored at all levels of the organization, just eliminate it and move on.

SMKITCHEN is a prime example - it's clearly been ignored in his unit.  Nothing about it is "new", yet he says he's
wearing BDUs today, and the only issue made was when he asked for a free set of ABUs.

Does it make him a more motivated member to now realize he has to buy new uniforms, or if he doesn't that his
CC isn't doing his job?

How does this benefit CAP?

Hold on hold on... First off im not fat, I just said im over the weight requirement, and not by much I may add. I just recently transferred back into cap after being out for a couple years, prior to that I was a cadet (and I was issued uniform items). With that said when the Air Force sent out the ABU uniforms to the squadrons, our received a lot of Larger sizes, sized that wouldn't fit our cadets because a lot of them are younger. When I came back as a senior member I bought all my uniforms items (hundreds of dollars worth) at the time because they weren't readily available. I realize now after researching it more that, my request wasn't going to be approved regardless of me being ten pounds lighter or heavier. My Commander was doing his job and is very "by the book".

As I am reading down this discussion I'm seeing that there are many questions of senior leadership wearing USAF style uniforms and nobody questions them because of that very reason that they're senior leadership. I was ALWAYS taught that you set the standard that you implement, and by what I've seen in my experience in my state alone, the Standard is High and regulation is fallowed.

I posted this discussion to get feedback on where it says the criteria within regulation.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I know HMRS program requires it for advancement in grade.

Perhaps, but certainly not to keep it...


http://www.capranger.org/news/07%20expert%20ranger%20awards%20article.pdf

[Meridius]

I know HMRS program requires it for advancement in grade.

Perhaps, but certainly not to keep it...

[Spam]

Lots of good points here. Let's see if I can sum up so we have a reference post for when this issue comes up again in the next 6-12 months (as it does every 6-12 months).

1. Corporate uniforms are for all seniors. I regularly wear my aviator shirt or polo. There ought to be no shame, no stigma, in anyone wearing corporate uniforms. If you think they're second-class uniforms for second-class citizens, then you are wrong.

2. We have weight standards because the USAF told us to. It is the price senior members pay to wear the uniform of our parent service.

3. The chart in 39-1 is formatted the way it is to show you that our weight standards are 10% over the (now defunct) USAF standards.

4. Weight charts are imperfect. No one argues otherwise. Be happy we're not taping people's waists, because that's an even more precarious (and intrusive) way to determine fitness. Weight charts are discriminatory against football players and powerlifters who are otherwise in good health. Such is life.

5. If you know you personally do not meet the weight standards, then the right thing to do is to wear corporate uniforms.

6. If you are a commander and you strongly suspect one of your people is wearing a USAF uniform when they shouldn't, you have an obligation to discuss it with them. Good leadership starts with you.

7. Voluntary or mandatory weigh-ins are probably not feasible. If we all followed rules 5 and 6 above, they would also be unnecessary.

8. Whatever uniform you wear, you ought to wear it well. Cadets, military brethren, ES mission partners, etc... they will respect a good uniform no matter which one it is. You can cut a sharp figure in an aviator shirt, and you can be slovenly in blues. Look sharp and take pride in your uniform.

Did I miss anything?

Good summation.

Perhaps 6.A:  If you're a commander, you need to actually BE a leader, by being honest with yourself and hanging up your own USAF style uniforms if you're outside of height/weight. I'll confess, although I hung up blues years ago I fooled myself on BDUs until I took a command again last summer, then accepted reality and hung them up too. Gotta lead from the front, even if it protrudes now more than 30 years ago.

I've already seen our first obviously fat officer proudly sporting new ABUs (long hair, too)... but not in my chain of command!

R/S,
Spam