Updated ABU Wear Instructions

[stillamarine]

Yup. All the services have gone back to rolling sleeves up.

[Toad1168]

Retired military, advisor to commander and squadron NCO. So the ABU is supposed to be worn with sleeves down.  CAP is following ABU policy with cut and paste from the AFM. I'm ok with this and understand that.  Most are not reading this as intent but what they want. There are many in my area that don't understand that the word "may" in the wear policy.  "May" authorize, is not authority to wear up all the time.  There is no date for guidance for dates in the year to wear up/down.   Wing guidance has not been established or a Wing supplement to 39-1.  I know it is earlier in the game with changes and guidance forth coming.  Has anyone heard anything or received guidance?

Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the ABU coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times. Reference AFI 36-2903, paragraph 5.1.1.

[kwe1009]

So the ABU is supposed to be worn with sleeves down. 

Just curious where this statement comes from.  I have never seen that in an USAF guidance and Airman have been wearing rolled sleeves since ABUs were authorized years ago.

[winterg]

I can say the same for down.  You didn't answer the question.

Wasn't answering your question. I was commenting on your statement that ABU was intended to be worn sleeves down. My observation has been the opposite.  That's all.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Wanda]

Thank you for replies and I'm familiar with Reference AFI 36-2903, paragraph 5.1.1.
As no "official" guidance has presented, no more replies needed.
Thank you again.
////Nothing Follows////

[stillamarine]

Thank you for replies and I'm familiar with Reference AFI 36-2903, paragraph 5.1.1.
As no "official" guidance has presented, no more replies needed.
Thank you again.
////Nothing Follows////

Oh something follows. You came in and made a statement which was refuted WITH official guidance from the EXACT manual that gives said guidance and think you get off with a smart aleck comment? You must be new here.

[NIN]

Retired military, advisor to commander and squadron NCO. So the ABU is supposed to be worn with sleeves down.  CAP is following ABU policy with cut and paste from the AFM. I'm ok with this and understand that.  Most are not reading this as intent but what they want. There are many in my area that don't understand that the word "may" in the wear policy.  "May" authorize, is not authority to wear up all the time.  There is no date for guidance for dates in the year to wear up/down.   Wing guidance has not been established or a Wing supplement to 39-1.  I know it is earlier in the game with changes and guidance forth coming.  Has anyone heard anything or received guidance?

Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the ABU coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times.

Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the ABU coat; however, the cuffs will remain visible and the sleeve will rest at, or within 1 inch of, the forearm when the arm is bent at a 90-degree angle. Regardless as to whether the sleeves are rolled up or unrolled, the cuffs will remain visible at all times.

The wear policy for CAP is a direct lift from the Air Force Uniform manual. That is the official guidance from NHQ.

If you're the advisor to the commander, you know how this works.  "You're never wrong if you wear the uniform your commander specifies."

Commander: "Next week's meeting will be ABUs utllity or equivalent with the sleeves rolled up." [Edit: my bad, not everybody can wear USAF style]
Members: "Roger!"

As a commander, I personally published the statement that when specified, uniform sleeves would be uniformly worn up or down across the squadron. That way the barracks lawyers were kept at bay.

[PHall]

Retired military, advisor to commander and squadron NCO. So the ABU is supposed to be worn with sleeves down.  CAP is following ABU policy with cut and paste from the AFM. I'm ok with this and understand that.  Most are not reading this as intent but what they want. There are many in my area that don't understand that the word "may" in the wear policy.  "May" authorize, is not authority to wear up all the time.  There is no date for guidance for dates in the year to wear up/down.   Wing guidance has not been established or a Wing supplement to 39-1.  I know it is earlier in the game with changes and guidance forth coming.  Has anyone heard anything or received guidance?

If the Commander authorizes the sleeves to be rolled and doesn't give any restrictions like "between 15 Apr and 15 Oct", then the way I read it you can roll them anytime you want.

And I'm retired Air Force, so I do know how the game is played.

And welcome to CAPTalk.

[Wanda]

Thank you all for responses and passion.  I took a chance with posting (and a miss post) for clarification trying to avoid the ABU interpretation and "Barracks Lawyers" during the current change over.  I guess it didn't workout.  I will wait for the new 39-1 to be published.  Thank you.

[NIN]

Thank you all for responses and passion.  I took a chance with posting (and a miss post) for clarification trying to avoid the ABU interpretation and "Barracks Lawyers" during the current change over.  I guess it didn't workout.  I will wait for the new 39-1 to be published.  Thank you.

I don't understand.

The guidance has been published.

You said

Retired military, advisor to commander and squadron NCO. So the ABU is supposed to be worn with sleeves down.  CAP is following ABU policy with cut and paste from the AFM. I'm ok with this and understand that.  Most are not reading this as intent but what they want. There are many in my area that don't understand that the word "may" in the wear policy.  "May" authorize, is not authority to wear up all the time.  There is no date for guidance for dates in the year to wear up/down.   Wing guidance has not been established or a Wing supplement to 39-1.  I know it is earlier in the game with changes and guidance forth coming.  Has anyone heard anything or received guidance?

What is your specific question or concern?

Are you worried that some commanders will say "No, in this squadron we go sleeves down all the time?"

You said: "Most are not reading this as intent but what they want."

Are you speaking of the commander's intent? If so, I believe it is clear that the commander's intent (that being the National Commander, the guy who signed the memo) is that we follow the general USAF wear pattern.  And the general USAF wear pattern is "Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled up on the ABU coat;[...]" (lifted straight out of the AFMAN)

Meaning that commanders (that being commanders below the echelon producing the publication) have some leeway on specifying when and where sleeves are rolled.

80 degrees in Tuscon, Arizona on the 1st of November?  "Sleeves up, folks."
45 degrees in Ogden, Utah on the 1st of November? "Sleeves down, folks."

Previously, the manual didn't specifically say "Commanders may authorize ..."  But commanders did anyway.  I know I stated in my unit's uniform policy "Sleeves will be up or down uniformly" meaning "if we said 'sleeves up' then everybody did so." 

Now CAP's rules reflects the AF guidance on the subject.

You also said "There are many in my area that don't understand that the word "may" in the wear policy.  "May" authorize, is not authority to wear up all the time. There is no date for guidance for dates in the year to wear up/down. "

I think I see what you're getting at here.

CAP for many years (dating back to the time, while the earth was cooling and airplanes had two wings: one on the top and one on the bottom) followed the old USAF pattern of "winter uniforms and summer uniforms" that dated back to the 1970s and before.  When things like Combination 3 and Tropical Worsted were still worn.

So it stood to reason that people still kept arbitrary guidelines like "summer uniforms after April 15th" or whatever. It was an easy way to keep everybody on the same page.  And these things got passed down as gospel wear patterns year after year.  I know I did it for a long time.  I still hear cadets who's parents weren't even born WIWAC say "Sir, I need winter blues."

But maybe, where you're at, some commanders say "OK, everybody, sleeves up from now until 15 October" or "in this squadron, we're totally hard core, so sleeves down all the time, no exceptions, I don't care if its 800 degrees out there.."

Your wing may or may not issue guidance on that. Note that it said "Commanders may..."  Your wing commander may not feel that sleeve rolling is as important of a deal to actually write a policy, or specify in a supplement, but instead will rely on his/her commanders to dictate the need as local conditions exist.

I still don't quite see where the concern for barracks lawyering comes in.

"Are you wearing the uniform your commander has specified?"

Thats pretty straightforward.

[Wanda]

Thank you sir! That's a answer that I was looking for.  I guess guidance was a bad choice of words and should of said the standard for guidance. 

It says, may authorize sleeves up. Not, may authorize sleeves down.  To me that is worn down until a standard/guidance is stated for sleeves up???  (half empty or half full)
Reasons for sleeves up are what? Dates, temperature, Commander authority, wing authority or safety?! 

[kwe1009]

Some CAP commanders choose to dictate if sleeves can be rolled or not.  Most USAF commanders do not.  In my nearly 30 years in the USAF the only time I experienced sleeve rolling guidance was in BMT, Tech School, and situations where sleeves needed to be down for valid mission reasons.  As a squadron commander I choose not to dictate sleeves up or down.  I only say that if the sleeves are rolled then it better be correctly done. 

Some people do not want to ever roll their sleeves for various reasons (personal preference, tattoos, medical condition, etc.) so I don't want to force them to roll sleeves and at the same time I don't want to not allow people to roll sleeves just because a couple of members can't/don't want to roll them.  There are more important things to worry about and not having everyone with their sleeves in the same position has zero effect on training, moral, effectiveness.

[THRAWN]

Default is down. Commanders have authority to go sleeves up for any number of reasons including temperature, phase of the moon, etc...

[DakRadz]

Reasons for sleeves up are what? Dates, temperature, Commander authority, wing authority or safety?!

Yes to all of these WITH commander authority. Basically anything the commander deems necessary.


Also, I read your initial post as most of the others seem to have. If your previous post is what you originally meant, it makes more sense.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[Luis R. Ramos]

Sleeves are rolled up, default is down, for whatever the commander deems necessary.

Safety:

Sleeves down may get caught up in something, sleeves could be ordered up.
Sleeves are up and the member is on a mission in a wooded area where mosquitoes, scratches with bush, other insects are possible, commander may say "sleeves down."
Sleeves are down commander feels that sleeves up may induce comfort from heat, sleeves can go up.
Sleeves are up commander feels it is too sunny and member may get sunburnt, sleeves go down.

Looks:

Commander likes the looks of sleeves rolled up, (s)he has the leeway to say "up sleeves."
Commander likes the looks of sleeves down, (s)he has the leeway to say "sleeves down."

[Eclipse]

Of all the things I have to care about as a Commander, sleeves up or down is not even on the list.

Considering the state of CAP's multiform, and that there are currently five variants of a field uniform,
not to mention the golf shirt as another option in the room, "uniformity" as an argument holds zero weight.

If you literally care about whether sleeves are up or down, or more humorously think it's a "safety issue", you need to refocus your attention.

Yeah, yeah, "I'm from Fontucky, GA Hell's Swampland Missourssipi, where the sun is only 100' feet away and the bugs
qualify for credit cards".  Whatever - BTW, a hat's not required with the CFU, so good luck with the sleeves.

If someone is warm in January, and wants them up, have at it.

Seriously, FIMO.

[Sapper168]

OK so we know default sleeve position is down.  Then Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled.  That is different than may require sleeves to be rolled correct?    If not how would that interact with members such as myself who are not allowed, by 39-1 to roll our sleeves do to tattoos that cover more than the maximum allowed area on an exposed appendage?

[kwe1009]

OK so we know default sleeve position is down.  Then Commanders may authorize sleeves to be rolled.  That is different than may require sleeves to be rolled correct?    If not how would that interact with members such as myself who are not allowed, by 39-1 to roll our sleeves do to tattoos that cover more than the maximum allowed area on an exposed appendage?

This is another reason why I don't dictate that my squadron members roll their sleeves or make everyone keep them down.  The how uniformity argument concerning rolling sleeves doesn't hold much for me as a USAF member.  It is so rare that a USAF commander bothers ordering sleeves up or down.  There are more important things to worry about.

To directly answer your question, a commander could say everyone must keep their sleeves down because there are some who can't roll their sleeves due to tattoos or medical reasons.  Since you can't roll your sleeves because of your tattoos, a commander can't order you to roll sleeves since that would make you out of compliance with 39-1.

[Damron]

I can only think of a few situations where I care whether sleeves are up or down.  I want my color guard's sleeves down when presenting colors at a meeting, we present colors at least twice a month. I would like uniformity for public drill such as a parade and when posing for group photos for publication.

Beyond that, I'm more concerned about the task at hand than sleeves.  By the time my cadet commander asks if it's okay to roll sleeves, I'm ready to go to t-shirts.

[abdsp51]

I tell you in the 17 years I have been in the AF there have only been a few times I couldn't roll my sleeves. 

1) BMT
2) Tech School round 1
3) Guard Mount
4) Deployed
5) RTC's
6) PME
7) Tech School round 2
Misc formations

I have seen more angst in this org about sleeve rolling than my entire AF career.  And most of the angst has come from cadets who for some reason have this fascination with rolling their sleeves. 

I have worn sleeves down in my ABUs since I started wearing them in 2008 to current.  Personally I would rather have my sleeves down because that's where my pens are, plus it has helped keep me cool during the hot summers in here in CA, the hot summers in AZ and in Korea.